What ever happened to total soldier concept?

2016-12-16T15:15:57-05:00

So I have been thinking lately about the promotion boards that we have been having. Most of the board members based their decisions off of their 300 pt score.

I was actually surprised as I thought that they were supposed to look at the whole soldier concept such as work ethic, soldier character, apft and so on.

I just wanna know some feedback about this issue please.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2016 3:18 PM

2016-12-16T15:18:23-05:00

I have never seen that before. Most I see are whole Soldier concept.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2016 3:23 PM

2016-12-16T15:23:07-05:00

This is not a new concept some leaders do. The concept of basing how good a Soldier is based mainly off their APFT score is a very old concept that refuses to die.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2016 5:01 PM

2016-12-16T17:01:16-05:00

Most are based off the total Soldier concept. I say most because I have been in units where PT was weighed heavily as a factor. As far as 300 PT score, I have never experienced that on any of the boards I have been a member for.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Dec 16 at 2016 6:22 PM

2016-12-16T18:22:18-05:00

Well that is a Good Question yes they should be looking at the whole person not at just a few Items should be looking at his leadership qualities and can take charge people that will working under him Does he know his MOS does he pass is SQT I don't know if you still have that? I have been out since AUG OF 1990 but I know what I had to do pass a Promotion board and Education Both military and Having college courses and Miltary schools also we were taking courses on our Jobs.
Our Max Points were 250 per board Member other than the Senior NCO like The SGM.
So If by chance you need some help with other things Ill be glade to help You.
SSG MARK FRANZEN
USA

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Dec 16 at 2016 7:14 PM

2016-12-16T19:14:38-05:00

Who said or why do you feel the decisions were based soled on the other score. In most cases, board members know the Soldier to begin with. The members already know the character, work ethic of the individual. Also, you recommended for boards. Your leadership is essentially endorsing you either directly because you're good or indirectly because they didn't the soldier to tell them they weren't. Additionally, your records are reviewed prior to the board. Even without asking questions at a board, a realistic assessment can be made about the "whole Soldier".

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2016 11:37 PM

2016-12-16T23:37:02-05:00

SGT Siasea, its been a long time since I wore Chevrons, but we had the same concerns back then...Rifle Score and PT Score were the primary driver of promotions in our eyes...Things we (as junior NCOs) saw as important as well were leadership ability, MOS knowlege, and the basic ability to get the "job done".

Now, as a former 2x Commander I can say that if leaders are basing promotions today of the same factors, its a failure of leadership, at least up to the Company/Battery/Troop Command level. The Squad Leaders, PSG and PL should know (very well) who inside their formation is ready to be promoted; the 1SG and CDR should not only demand the PLT level leaders do this, but should get their input as the Company looks at promotion decisions.

I have no idea what your organization looks or acts like, so take this reccomendation for what its worth, but I would take your concerns and package them into a professionally-worded concern (not emotional...speak to the good of the organization) and bring them to your 1SG and Commander. (I know many NCOs will disagree, but I think most Commander's want to hear "truth data" inside their formations that isn't filtered by multiple leaders before it gets to them).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2016 12:23 PM

2016-12-17T12:23:10-05:00

I just sat in a promotion board last month. Some of the Soldiers that went thru had PT scores of less then 220. Some of them were recommended and some were not. If I did not know the Soldiers I would listen to all the answers they gave, watch how they reacted, listen for hesitation, listen for confidence, and read every word of their promotion packet. Even a Soldier that works for my 1SG and commander as the orderly room clerk I did not recommend because of all the things I just listed were missing. But their PT score was above 250 and their weapons score was sharpshooter. My 1SG is all about PT, and weapons and training. He is a ranger and my commander is prior infantry. So in my opinion PT was not the desiding factor. Not being able to perform in a professional manner was

Just my insight when I sit on boards

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2016 9:47 PM

2016-12-17T21:47:03-05:00

I do believe most leaders attempt to evaluate the total soldier. However, abstract things are much harder to quantify than concrete items, such as 40/40 rifle score, or a 300 APFT.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2016 8:03 AM

2016-12-18T08:03:57-05:00

Okay, when I was an active duty SSG, I was part of the Land Information Warfare Activity, which was a part of INSCOM. It's now 1st IO Command, and it's own entity, but back then it was a platoon of HHC INSCOM. The then-NCOIC was a MSG, not a CSM like now, so of course he wasn't going to be the PSG.... he picked me.

My OIC went ballistic and told me he didn't want to have me in his thought process for the section I was working in if I was going to be gone part of the time for PSG duties. He refused to understand that being an NCO is a balance between your MOS duties and leadership duties, and that would have set me up for success, had I chose to compete for SFC. The SFC that was there as the "department" NCOIC under him? She backed him up. I will never work with (LTC) Patrick Simon or (SFC/MSG) Renee Hartsfield again if I ever have a choice. Oh yeah, I went there, and named names. Zero f***s given.

Based on that, I'd say no one with any semblance of authority gives a shit about the Total Soldier concept. They want what they want, and f*&& everything else.

Response by Maj Marty Hogan made Dec 18 at 2016 1:58 PM

2016-12-18T13:58:24-05:00

Everyone needed a ribbon

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2016 2:42 AM

2016-12-19T02:42:49-05:00

The justification is basically that a 300 APFT is a basic Soldier skill that should be standard to even be considered for accelerated promotion. It isn't "everything", but it is an easy standard to use as a baseline.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Dec 19 at 2016 9:59 AM

2016-12-19T09:59:41-05:00

While you are correct, we should be looking at the whole soldier concept, going off the pt scores allows them to narrow down their choices.

You've got 3 soldiers up for promotion, but only 1 slot available.
2 have perfect PT scores
1 has an average PT score.

You've just narrowed your choice down to 2.

Maybe between the 2 left, one shoots better. Maybe has a higher martial arts belt. Maybe they can rattle off the entire history of the Army.

They are going over the whole soldier concept, but they are using the common factors to start the elimination process. The easiest factor to judge off of is the PT scores.

Response by 1SG Terry Ching made Dec 19 at 2016 4:14 PM

2016-12-19T16:14:16-05:00

I always thought promotions based solely on PT and Marksmanship were wrong and have argued this point to no avail. You need to look at the Total Soldier.

Response by CAPT Dave Woodard made Dec 19 at 2016 5:12 PM

2016-12-19T17:12:23-05:00

I have to totally agree. My scenario is somewhat different, but when I was screened for O-7, the secretary of the board indicated that I should not really consider buying a new cover since I would not make the first pass. Education, spot on, Career A- (don't suck up), PT - A, Picture- - B-. I'm not a GQ male model at 6'4", 200#, 36" waist. More like an interior lineman. Clearly, as this soldier says, it is clear that the "picture" is really a photograph, not a picture. Having written some fitness reports on individuals who later are promoted more than once leads me to believe that sometimes the only thing the boards consider is the physique. screw the brain.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Dec 19 at 2016 8:43 PM

2016-12-19T20:43:17-05:00

Pft score is only a part of the picture. You don't expect the benefit of the doubt if you don't qualify or making the minimum? Meeting the minimum doesn't really cut it if your looking for a promotion. My question would be why aren't you working harder? A medical reason with validation would make it a non issue.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2016 9:00 AM

2016-12-20T09:00:21-05:00

I too previously held beliefs such as you're expressing now. With experience I have come to learn they are unfounded. What I have learned also is that those who push themselves to score 300 and shoot 40 targets, are the same ones who push themselves in other areas, thereby looking the best in front of a promotion board and subsequently being promoted quicker than those who don't put forth as much effort.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2016 12:03 PM

2016-12-20T12:03:48-05:00

One of the interesting aspects of a draw down organization is that they use easily measurable criteria for determine who stays, who gets promoted and who goes. As a result, things like APFT, Ht/Wt, Marksmanship, etc. These variables do not make a good leader but are discriminators. True leadership would look at the whole soldier and would know who should be promoted, based on performance, personality, technical and tactical competence as well as the easily measurable variables. But lazy leaders will stick to APFT, Ht/Wt and marksmanship.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2016 5:32 PM

2016-12-23T17:32:45-05:00

A college degree became more important for senior leadership to have, while leadership took a back seat. Now we have the blind leading th3 blind. If all you know is online schooling and the Pentagon how can you enforce something you dont understand yourself.