When is a Navy Captain referred to as 'Commodore'? When is a Lieutenant called 'Captain'?

2015-12-23T00:37:16-05:00

First things first, credit for this idea goes to COL Ted Mc, who posed these questions to me in another thread, as an indication of the confusion Naval ranks can cause other services. I thought it would be fun and informative to submit them to the larger RP audience. Sister service members, if you have similar vagaries in your rank structures, please feel free to post them as well. So, to wit:

1. When is a full-bird Captain referred to as 'Commodore'?
2. When is an (O-3) Captain referred to as 'Major'?
3. When is a Lieutenant referred to as 'Captain'? (Or, alternatively, a Senior Chief, or Master Chief?)

And bonus question, just for the heck of it, what the hell is a 'Boats', anyway?

Go!

Response by SCPO Joshua I made Dec 23 at 2015 12:53 AM

2015-12-23T00:53:33-05:00

Commodores are in charge of squadrons, normally, it's a position, not a rank.

Captains are never referred to as "Major", at least not Navy Captains. I found something on Google that indicated Army and Marine Corps Captains may be referred to as "Major" to avoid confusion on a Naval Vessel. Never heard that one before.

Anyone in command of a vessel is referred to as Captain, regardless of rank.

Boats is any rated Boatswain's Mate.

Response by MSgt John Carroll made Dec 23 at 2015 1:08 AM

2015-12-23T01:08:10-05:00

Number 2 made me giggle because when I was in North Korea we were all Mr. XXX or a nickname/callsign. That was for everyone except the Captain. We had to call him Major XXX because the KPA Colonel would not speak to anyone under the rank of Major.

I have never heard of 1.
2. Implies a non-Navy O-3 called Major as to not confuse people.
3. The boat driver
4. a rate. EOD is it's own rate now but it used not be. Going through a joint school NAVSCOLEOD I had an instructor BM1 XXX.

My dad was a Corpsman

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 1:09 AM

2015-12-23T01:09:48-05:00

Have you ever heard of the UNITED STATES COAST GUARD???

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Dec 23 at 2015 1:26 AM

2015-12-23T01:26:24-05:00

A Captain is called Commodore when he is CO of a squadron of destroyers...

Response by Capt Walter Miller made Dec 23 at 2015 2:03 AM

2015-12-23T02:03:11-05:00

1. When he controls more than one ship.

2. To avoid having two 'captains' on board.

3. When they command a vessel.

4. A Boatswain.

Walt

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Dec 23 at 2015 4:52 AM

2015-12-23T04:52:02-05:00

1. Time of war as a fleet commander.

2. No clue

3. When in command of a sea-going vessel.

Bonus guess: Boatswain

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 7:00 AM

2015-12-23T07:00:20-05:00

Commodore was used for a specific pay grade for a short period of time and not just a positional title. What pay grade was this?

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Dec 23 at 2015 7:59 AM

2015-12-23T07:59:43-05:00

LOL, you got me on those. No clue.
Just reading Billy Budd again, I figured out where the term Midshipman came from.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Dec 23 at 2015 8:09 AM

2015-12-23T08:09:25-05:00

1) An O6 on a vessel not acting as the Captain of said vessel, such as the ARG Commander.
2) Out of vogue now, but when you have non-Navy O3 aboard (in small quantities), they "may" be referred to as "Major" as a ship only has a singular Captain. Reference Starship Troopers by R.A. Heinlein for the tradition.
3) The Captain of a ship, as a position of authority. Although "Skipper" may also be appropriately because of Rank. My understanding was Commander+, but it's been a long time since I looked at it.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Dec 23 at 2015 8:55 AM

2015-12-23T08:55:29-05:00

This is funny and brings back memories. As an Air Force Captain I work in a joint environment with a Coast Guard search and rescue unit. Not intentionally, I would call over to the Coast Guard Ops Center to launch a search and said "this is Captain Shuttleworth with an immediate launch message" I got things done until I realized what was happening. Never dawned on me until one day one of the Coast Guard Senior Chiefs on watch with us pointed it out to me. After that I always prefaced my phone calls with this is Air Force Captain Shuttleworth to avoid the confusion. Still didn't slow those quiet professionals down. Love all the services dearly but from that experience, I Love me some Coast Guard!!!!

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 9:00 AM

2015-12-23T09:00:21-05:00

Good quiz. I have to say I enjoy learning all the odd things that people post about the branches.

Here's one for you Greg.
When is the only time that a Naval Officer will be referred to as Chief?

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Dec 23 at 2015 9:09 AM

2015-12-23T09:09:58-05:00

Thanks for tagging me SN Greg Wright. I am thankful for the US Navy veterans who provided the answers since I did not know any of them. :-)

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Dec 23 at 2015 9:12 AM

2015-12-23T09:12:42-05:00

SN Greg Wright thanks, now all it makes since, I work with the Navy at Cheatham Annex.

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Dec 23 at 2015 9:36 AM

2015-12-23T09:36:10-05:00

SN Greg Wright Honestly I learn a lot through your question - thanks for sharing. Way to go COL Ted Mc

Response by SSgt Rilene Ann made Dec 23 at 2015 9:45 AM

2015-12-23T09:45:22-05:00

My son was first in Navy from long line of mostly Air Force family. But Army was previous years going back to WW1 and even AR. I have learned a lot about the Navy from him and history never knew.

Response by CDR Terry Boles made Dec 23 at 2015 10:11 AM

2015-12-23T10:11:13-05:00

SN Greg Wright
Fun question with interesting responses from non Naval types. It took me back to my shipboard days of long ago...thanks for sharing.

Response by CPO Joseph Grant made Dec 23 at 2015 10:39 AM

2015-12-23T10:39:12-05:00

All I remember is that you still love to stay on Air Force bases when I would go TAD. All you had to do was say you were chief and for some reason the wing wipers ran around like mad to make you happy

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Dec 23 at 2015 11:41 AM

2015-12-23T11:41:03-05:00

We had an Army Transportation Captain as our Motor T officer in Operation Deep Freeze. He'd always say "Army Type" on the phone to avoid confusion until..... The Coke machine was busted for a week and he rung up the Exchange Officer. Got a new one within an hour.

On the flip side, I was a LT (O-3) at MCAS El Toro. Power went out in housing and it would take as much time to fix 100 ENL units as it would 10 OFF units. A Marine Major was looking at work being done on the wrong side and demanded I do something about it. I refused. He wanted to know my boss' name. Captain Schumate. He rung him up and while chewing him out, fell to silence once he recognized the person on the other end of the phone was humming Anchors Aweigh. He did look good Monday morning apologizing in his dress uniform.

Response by CMDCM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 12:07 PM

2015-12-23T12:07:16-05:00

A full bird Captain (O-6) is referred to Commodore when in command of a Destroyer or Cruiser squadron which only assigne to O-6's and above.
A lieutenant is referred to captain, when in command of smaller vessels I.e., patrol crafts or riverine squadrons.
Boats is short for boatswains mate the rate our Navy relies heavily on to moore our ships pier side, get our ships underway, anchoring our ships at sea and preserving the deckplates and painting requirements of all outside surfaces of the ship!

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Dec 23 at 2015 3:01 PM

2015-12-23T15:01:20-05:00

A Navy Captain is a Commodore when he is in command of a squadron of ships, such as DESRON 15
In 24 years I never heard of a 0-3 Captain called anything but Captain because that's what he is, I am not a military expert and I suppose that there could possibly be some situation where it would occur I just can't fathom where that might be.
A Lieutenant is referred to Captain when he is in command of a ship and that can apply to LCDR and CDR as well when they are CO of a ship.
Boats is a Boatswain Mate regardless of rank.

Response by PO1 Scott Cottrell made Dec 23 at 2015 3:51 PM

2015-12-23T15:51:21-05:00

1. Commander of a ready group. examples: DESRON, PHIBRON, TACGROUP
2. no idea, never heard of an O-3 called a Major (O-4 in all other branches)
3. When he is the ONC of the vessel. Normally called Skipper.
4. Someone in the Boatswain Mate rate (PO3 and above) The senior Boatswain Mate on the ship are also know as God.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Dec 23 at 2015 4:55 PM

2015-12-23T16:55:40-05:00

1. When he is in Command of a Squadron of Ships.
2. I'm clueless.
3. That is easy my Uncle WWII Veteran was an E-3 Captain. Senior Man in Charge of a Naval Vessel in my Uncles Case a Landing Craft.
4. Boats, Senior Boatswains Mate onboard a Naval Vessel is Called Boats. Or Boatswains Mates in General. I had some Damn Good Boats take care of this Crippie.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 5:27 PM

2015-12-23T17:27:55-05:00

1. If they command multiple squadrons or separate commands.
2. If he's in a major's billet, thus wearing that rank, but not afforded the actual promotion yet.
3. When they command a sea-going vessel.

Bonus: A boatswain's mate.
Bonus bonus for 2: When he's singing a key that isn't minor.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Dec 23 at 2015 5:54 PM

2015-12-23T17:54:23-05:00

1. 06 "Commodore": command of more than one ship but less than a fleet (or he would be an admiral).
2. 03 "Major" a courtesy promotion to a Marine Captain serving aboard a vessel where referring to him by his proper rank may confuse folks vs. the commander of the vessel (the Captain)
3. Navy 03 or SCPO or MCPO as 'Captain" when he routinely has command of a vessel (patrol boat, Coast Guard boats, etc.)

And I did answer these without reference or looking at the the other answers first.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 9:53 PM

2015-12-23T21:53:43-05:00

If you are Russell Crowe or in Pirates of the Caribbean.

Response by PO2 Michael Henry made Dec 23 at 2015 9:58 PM

2015-12-23T21:58:10-05:00

1. When the O-6 CAPT has more than one command or ship under his/her command.
2. Usually when they make the rank of Major. Could also mean that O-3 is a MAJOR _______.
3. When they assume command of a ship.
4. Slang for Boatswain Mate. This can be a good thing or a bad thing based on whether that person chose that rate or was forced on them by flunking out of "A" school.

Got anything harder? Here is one, why is a ship referred to as she or her?

Response by PO2 Sam Messer made Dec 23 at 2015 11:26 PM

2015-12-23T23:26:55-05:00

You got me on most of these questions ! As for Commodore I was Attached troop with Beach Masters on board the USS La Salle & the flag ship of our Group. The Commodore was a full Captain this was the first time I even knew there was such a rank ! Would he be filling an Admirals position & the reason to be called commodore? As to Lieutenant Army, Marine & Air Force would call him Captain. Senior Chief - Master Chief ? Must be some kind of training, NO idea !
Looking these up for answers on internet...

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Dec 23 at 2015 11:30 PM

2015-12-23T23:30:21-05:00

I thought a Commodore was a one star.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Dec 23 at 2015 11:34 PM

2015-12-23T23:34:39-05:00

I lived in Annapolis for five years and Pearl Harbor for two. My dad worked for the Navy for 20 some years. I still don't get it all. I was gonna join the Navy but I figured at 6'6" I'd kill myself hitting my head on pipes and things. I think I made the right choice. Just figuring out all the rank would have been too much for my simple mind.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 11:47 PM

2015-12-23T23:47:47-05:00

Haha...I served in the Corps, so i'll take a stab at these.
1. when the cap-e-ton is in charge of more then one ship, I believe.
2. I would say Never. I've been on naval vessel and we never called our Capt, Major, we just called him Sir. We called the Captain or Full Bird- Skipper.
3. When he's in charge of a vessel
bonus - boatswain

Response by PO1 John Miller made Dec 24 at 2015 1:15 AM

2015-12-24T01:15:16-05:00

1. When said Captain is in charge of a group of ships; ARG, CSG, etc.
2. Never heard that one. I've seen others say that an O3 Captain is called Major to avoid confusion when onboard a Naval vessel but I've never seen it. I've had Jarheads on a few of my ships and their O3's were always called Sir/Ma'am or Captain.
3. When they're the commanding officer of a ship or small boat.

Bonus: A Boatswain's Mate, duh! :)

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2015 2:37 PM

2015-12-24T14:37:25-05:00

I've always heard it explained thus-but am open to correction:

1. The rank of Commodore was created during the time when there were only three ranks of fully qualified naval offices...Lieutenants, Captains and Admirals. A lieutenant was any officer who had passed the examination after serving as a midshipmen. Captains were officers commanding ships, and Commodores were Captains who commanded flotillas, but didn't share equal rank with general officers ashore. An admiral was essentially a general at sea, commanding vessels, and embarked troops.

2. I believe historically, any time a lieutenant assumed command of a vessel permanently, he was promoted "captain". The rank of Lieutenant-Commanding was created later to signify a lieutenant who was fully in command of a vessel, and by the 19th century, this rank evolved into Lieutenant Commander. Rear Admiral evolved to replace Commodore...though I believe (and I'd need to do some fact checking) the term continued for a short time as the ranks of Captain and Rear Admiral distanced in status and became more formalized.

3. "Boats" of course, has been used for at least two occurrences...first, as the Boatswain's Mate; a billet that extends back to the earliest days of sail, and continues today as the senior enlisted or warrant officer under the First Lieutenant. Most usually, the most experienced and qualified person above decks. I've also heard it used commonly in the second instance, among any rated Boatswain's Mate-thought I'd love to get the "official" take from any BMs on RP.

In summary, the term "commodore" has always indicated an officer who has command over more than one vessel...but I believe the use fell away with the increased formality of progression from Captain to Rear Admiral. A Lieutenant commanding a vessel as senior officer would be called "Skipper", but with the emergence of Captain as a formal rank, and Lieutenant Commander, I do not believe you would call a senior LT in command "Captain". "Boats" is most probably best applied to the First Lieutenant's senior enlisted/warrant officer expert...though I have heard it used in-rate by BMs.

Response by CWO3 Bryan Luciani made Dec 24 at 2015 5:50 PM

2015-12-24T17:50:16-05:00

Some mistakes below:
Item 1) A Captain is referred to as Commodore when he leads multiple commands, not just ships. Commodore of NBG-1 has multiple shore commands under him/her, such as BMU-1 ACU-1, ACU-5, ACB-1.
Item 4) "Boats" is a short name for a Boatswain's Mate (BM). Also, a Ship's Boatswain (a Warrant Officer Specialty) will be referred to as "Boats" but ONLY by his Warrant peer group or the CO/XO.

Response by Capt Walter Miller made Dec 25 at 2015 2:15 AM

2015-12-25T02:15:56-05:00

I don't know why I didn't think of this before. A nickname for Marine captains is 'skipper'. This just helps avoid Navy officer insecurity.

(Totally kidding. Honest.)

Walt

Response by PO1 Joseph Glennon made Dec 25 at 2015 7:37 PM

2015-12-25T19:37:12-05:00

1) Another reason for a Captain to be referred to as "Commodore" is if he's riding a ship that he doesn't command - a ship only has one Captain.
2) No idea - I'm retired Navy, didn't pay too much attention to the minutia of other services.
3) When they are the commanding (officer / authority) of their own craft.

Bonus - "Boats" is the name that a competent Boatswain's Mate is referred to by members of his crew. The "Boatswain" is the senior Boatswain's Mate (usually is either a Warrant or LDO) on a ship.

V/R
"Boats"

Response by PO1 Joseph Glennon made Dec 25 at 2015 7:51 PM

2015-12-25T19:51:57-05:00

Here's one for you:
Your ship is expecting a number of dignitaries; among whom are going to be the Captain of the USS United States and the PotUS.

The bells ring and you hear over the 1MC, "United States, Arriving" ... how do you know if it's the Captain or the President?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2015 5:46 AM

2015-12-26T05:46:12-05:00

1. When he is in charge of a CTF or a Group.
2. Umm when he's a major pain in the ass?
3. When they are the CO of a ship.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2015 5:46 AM

2015-12-26T05:46:44-05:00

Boats would be the E6 aka BM1 usually in Ops.

Response by PO2 Ron Burling made Dec 27 at 2015 4:06 PM

2015-12-27T16:06:57-05:00

1. When he commands a TF or group.
2. When he is the Commanding Officer of a shipboard Marine detachment.
3. When they command a vessel.
4. Boatswain Mate, the senior rate in the Navy.

Response by PO1 Joseph Frazier made Dec 31 at 2015 9:50 PM

2015-12-31T21:50:51-05:00

An O-3 is referred to as Captain when he or she holds the position of commanding officer. I worked for a Captain that was a Commodore. He had Command of a Squadron on ships. I believe this is why they are called Commodore.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2016 8:43 PM

2016-01-09T20:43:09-05:00

A commodore is a captain who has the responsibilities of an admiral. Commodore used to be an actual rank prior to the creation of rear admiral lower and upper halls. This was dropped because Commodores were seen as being part of the admiralty so the rank was renamed rear admiral lower half to avoid confusion with the previously existing rank of rear admiral. Commodore is now more a title of responsibility rather than pay grade.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Jan 10 at 2016 11:05 AM

2016-01-10T11:05:15-05:00

SN Greg Wright another amusing thing in ranks, is the differences in the meaning of "Chief". In the Navy and Coast Guard, E-7. In the Army, CWO. In the Air Force, E-9...

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made May 14 at 2016 5:30 AM

2016-05-14T05:30:03-04:00

I've never quite understood, admittedly, the whole thing about commodore vs rear admiral lower half. I'm aware that shore installations, especially major port facilities during WW2, especially in the Pacific from an account I'd read of the USS Indianapolis called In Harm's Way, great book, mentioned that, also in the film version of the story with Stacy Keach, good film rendition, refer, I believe , to there having been a commodore commanding a shore installation involved in the search for the ship. The only thing that always strikes me as more than slightly crazy about the whole thing is the seemingly continual back and forth about the usage of the title, that's all. I understand that many naval traditions while worth being kept by all means have purpose and meaning, I just never entirely understood entirely the need for having rear adm upr and lwr halves, when the commodore title was available for use terminologically, that's all I'm trying to convey, I'd be most eager for any thoughts, many thanks just historical curiosity, honest. It's rather like the whole thing about ADM Dewey being ADM of the Navy, the whole thing with gen Pershing as genl of the armies actually on his tombstone I've seen the picture, and genl Pershing having opted for four gold stars for his uniform, instead of the normal four silver ones, in place of a six star circlet five like those of gens Eisenhower or the other five stars , with one in the center, which always just struck me as the completely logical approach, you know? Granted such senior officers have option to choose, or it depends on how Congress approves things, I realize that, it's just that such erratic arcamia, if you will, while of historical interest, certainly, is seemingly calculated as deliberately designed to drive the serious student of history to distraction lol. I've also never understood why, e.g., the chair and vice chair of the jcs since therell obv eventually quite deservedly be females in those roles, OTS obv inevitable to me only a matter of time, aren't given five or six star rank, akin to the whole field marshal and or grand admiral European traditions. I realize ww2 was a unique case, and that there'd been a comgrsnl effort to promote genl MacArthur to six stars which I'd read Jed aprntly said to pls stop, I'd gathered, I just figured I'd mention all those thoughts here, for whatever debate such ideas on my part might engender, many thanks.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Aug 25 at 2016 10:52 PM

2016-08-25T22:52:26-04:00

That's actually pretty good...there were a cpl of others I'd known of, as naval idiosyncrasies, obv good ones, of course just stuff I'd heard or picked up, as well as read about, at various times. There was something about approaching a senior officer, I'd always heard one is to say, "By your leave, sir/ma'am", though I don't know how modern sensibilities mightndictate use of rank, rather than themsir/ma'am, now, I'd read about that trend of late also, of course. Next, I'd read that, espec as late as ww2, e.g., the senior flag rank commanding a shore based naval installation was typ made commodore. I'd read of e.g., on the Wikipedia page for radm grace hopper, that I'd sent in a cpl of wks back, some on here actually knew and or had met her, the famous comp sci expert, that she'd actually been made commodore before radm lower half. That's another naval idiosyncrasy, the whole lower and upper half thing, and the whole jjunior grade or j.g. thing, as well, though I'd seen many countries differentiate between Jr and SR company grade ofcrs in similar fashions, not just j.g. or the whole 2nd/1st Lt thing. Then there's the whole UK pronunciation of lieutenant as " leftanent", another country based idiosyncrasy, as well. I knew of the spwhole shore naval installation thing during ww2 for commodore, or, I'd also read, head of a naval task force, at least some time back, I recall, as, in the book In Harms's Way, about the whole USS Indianapolis tragedy, one of the shore installation commanders involved in the search for them ship had been mentioned as being a commodore. Then, also, there's the whole naval thing of "frocking", the analogue to "pinning on" higher rank in army and USAF, I'm not sure how USMC does it, I'd expect USCG, NOAA corps, and usphs corps, also do frocking, as well as US maritime SVC or USMS, being sea svcs, as well. I also know there's that whole thing of waiting for Senate approval before pinning on, the CO of my unit, whom I'd mentioned speaking with once for an hour an experience in itself, I can tell all of you, was a Col waiting to pin on though apprvd for BGen. The usage of Maj for multiple Capt on board a vessel, I hadn't heard or didn't recall, that's interesting, of course. The whole Boats thing apfor a Bosun I'd heard, at least in a merchant marine context, though ocsnly from a naval or sea SVC perspective. There's also the whole CWO usage of Chief, and the whole usage of senior enlisted total ranks as a mode of address, e.g., master chief in Navy or USCG, or, I'd seen in USAF, referring to a CMSgt as Chief on occasion, ever since USAF eliminated warrants. When I was army ROTC before going USAF OTS, the ROTC unit I was in had a CSM I'd heard and addressed fully as command sergeant major, per se, and also a master sergeant addressed as such, as well. Those were just some other aspects I'd noticed I'd figured worth including here, I'd be eager for any thoughts, good topic, honest, interesting minutiae, many thanks, hope was of interest.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Aug 4 at 2020 12:08 PM

2020-08-04T12:08:45-04:00

I think Commodores wear a single star, so when the Captain wears a star. Used to be a wartime only rank but lately have seen Commodores on carriers when I watch videos. All skippers are called Captain regardless of rank, otherwise below CDR addressed as Mister. Boats is a BM Rate.