CW2 Jonathan Kantor 95746 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I have experienced this personally throughout my career and seen it in my NCOs as well.&amp;nbsp; When a Soldier has a Profile, some leaders become self-accredited doctors.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Once, I was in a minor accident and had some nasty whiplash.&amp;nbsp; I got the standard, Motrin + Profile x 2 weeks.&amp;nbsp; I went back to doing PT after the Profile ends and basically destroyed my neck doing one sit-up.&amp;nbsp; I was then counseled by my NCOIC (An E-5 at the time) for malingering.&amp;nbsp; His reasoning was that I couldn&#39;t have hurt myself so badly so I was faking.&amp;nbsp; He let up when I went back to the clinic and got a good diagnosis and meds.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;On other occasions, I have been told to do exercises that I cannot do so I do something else that works out the same muscle groups.&amp;nbsp; Several times, I have had senior NCOs yell at me (This was before I became a Warrant) and told me to do the exercise they called.&amp;nbsp; I explained I was on Profile and was then told to show it.&amp;nbsp; I didn&#39;t have a copy on me so I was told I had to do the exercise.&amp;nbsp; Of course I didn&#39;t and nobody has ever shown me a reg that stipulates that I have to carry around my profile.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This happens a lot to other Soldiers, especially Junior Soldiers.&amp;nbsp; I have counseled several of my NCOs that have done this.&amp;nbsp; I told them that they don&#39;t have a medical degree so they couldn&#39;t assess the Troop until they had one.&amp;nbsp; It pisses me off when I observe this so I kill it ASAP.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Back to my question in the title: Why do some NCOs feel that they have an MD when dealing with their Troop&#39;s Profiles?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Has anyone else experienced this?&amp;nbsp; Done this?&amp;nbsp; Seen this?&amp;nbsp; Why does this occur?&lt;br&gt; 2014-04-07T12:25:09-04:00 CW2 Jonathan Kantor 95746

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I have experienced this personally throughout my career and seen it in my NCOs as well.&amp;nbsp; When a Soldier has a Profile, some leaders become self-accredited doctors.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Once, I was in a minor accident and had some nasty whiplash.&amp;nbsp; I got the standard, Motrin + Profile x 2 weeks.&amp;nbsp; I went back to doing PT after the Profile ends and basically destroyed my neck doing one sit-up.&amp;nbsp; I was then counseled by my NCOIC (An E-5 at the time) for malingering.&amp;nbsp; His reasoning was that I couldn&#39;t have hurt myself so badly so I was faking.&amp;nbsp; He let up when I went back to the clinic and got a good diagnosis and meds.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;On other occasions, I have been told to do exercises that I cannot do so I do something else that works out the same muscle groups.&amp;nbsp; Several times, I have had senior NCOs yell at me (This was before I became a Warrant) and told me to do the exercise they called.&amp;nbsp; I explained I was on Profile and was then told to show it.&amp;nbsp; I didn&#39;t have a copy on me so I was told I had to do the exercise.&amp;nbsp; Of course I didn&#39;t and nobody has ever shown me a reg that stipulates that I have to carry around my profile.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This happens a lot to other Soldiers, especially Junior Soldiers.&amp;nbsp; I have counseled several of my NCOs that have done this.&amp;nbsp; I told them that they don&#39;t have a medical degree so they couldn&#39;t assess the Troop until they had one.&amp;nbsp; It pisses me off when I observe this so I kill it ASAP.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Back to my question in the title: Why do some NCOs feel that they have an MD when dealing with their Troop&#39;s Profiles?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Has anyone else experienced this?&amp;nbsp; Done this?&amp;nbsp; Seen this?&amp;nbsp; Why does this occur?&lt;br&gt;

2014-04-07T12:25:09-04:00 2014-04-07T12:25:09-04:00 1SG Private RallyPoint Member 95753

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>Chief this a tough topic to pinpoint any specific "correct" answer. I agree that some NCOs think they are doctors and know best! I assure you that I am not one of them. </p><p> </p><p>However there are some doctors that just don't know how to write in a profile form to convey what they are really trying to make the leaders understand. I have even had civilian doctors write profiles that are just not authorized. An example: I had a Soldier who (amongst many other issues) just didn't like to shave and had a shaving profile (possibly a legit need, which I did not question) his beard was too long and I told him that it needed to be trimmed to 1/8 inch. He whipped out his profile and the doctor had put that he could have a 1/2" beard. No where is this even authorized.</p><p> </p><p>Recently here in FT Lee a doctor gave a Soldier a memo stating that due to shoulder surgery he does not have to be in tolerance with AWCP. Also a no-go! If an NCO does not sometimes question "medical professionals" somewhere along the line they will be out of control with profiles.</p><p> </p><p>Again, I do not think it is that NCOs think they are DRs, but that there needs to be a good checks and balances process when these "MD having doctors" are trying to implement rules for us.</p><p> </p><p>If it was not for HIPPA I would post a profile that I saw a few years back. It was very clear that this Soldier told the Dr what he wanted on his profile. Stated he could not work longer than eight hours at a time, and that he could not wear a military uniform for mare than eight hours at a time. Went on to say that he could not sit, stand, lay for more than 20 minutes at a time. This particular Soldier had a 35 minute drive to work. How did he make it to work if he couldn't sit for more than 20 minutes? I let it go (with a plan) for 1 week. On week two had him re-evaluated and the profile remained in effect. So that day I made him stay on post in the barracks so that he wouldn't break his profile by sitting more than 20 minutes driving to work. By the end of the day his profile was changed.</p>

2014-04-07T12:42:37-04:00 2014-04-07T12:42:37-04:00 SPC Private RallyPoint Member 95758

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>DAMN, wish you was my chief!!&amp;nbsp;

2014-04-07T13:01:15-04:00 2014-04-07T13:01:15-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 95786

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>&lt;p&gt;I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I&#39;m pretty much a doctor.&amp;nbsp; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You are right, NCOs are not doctors but they need to be pretty good at deciphering profiles and determine what exercises a Soldier can and cannot do.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Profiles don&#39;t indicate every&amp;nbsp;exercise that cannot be done.&amp;nbsp; We do need to be careful though not to further injure Soldiers, as this can cause&amp;nbsp;greater issues!&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;

2014-04-07T13:56:03-04:00 2014-04-07T13:56:03-04:00 SGT Private RallyPoint Member 95813

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>Good luck with this one Sir!</p><br /><p> </p><br /><p>Being former combat arms i understand the mentality of those NCO's that believe you can only rest when you die. As a medic now i fully believe in recovery time and ensuring the human body has enough to adjust to its wounds. We have an amazing ability to adapt but it takes a long time to adapt in some cases. I while ago i was told that a profile was only a physicians "reccomendation" that a SM should be placed on light duty or quarters. Most commanders wont go againt a qualified medical opinion but one that profile is up many believe that the SM is fully functional at the level they were before the profile was enacted. I believe that a culture change is probably neccessary to combat this train of thinking. Yes, as Soldiers we can go hard, but we shouldnt go stupid hard!</p>

2014-04-07T14:52:33-04:00 2014-04-07T14:52:33-04:00 MSG Jose Colon 95852

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>Even though I've being versed in Medical Emergencies and was a CPR and First Aids instructor trainer, I never did claimed my MD.</p><p> </p><p>Due to so many Soldiers malingering, and the coincidence of so many ill and injured a few days or the day of the PT run or the Division run, NCO's tend to grow suspicious. That however, is no reason to violate a Soldier's or NCO's HIPA rights.</p>

2014-04-07T15:29:45-04:00 2014-04-07T15:29:45-04:00 SSG Anthony Schoepp 95870

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>A major issue that I ran into as a medic was NCOs coming to me asking me to explain what was wrong with their Soldier. This becomes a touchy subject because as a medical professional, I am required to keep comments within HIPAA. Also, as mentioned by SPC P K, I have to be careful not to fall into the UPM. I usually referred them to talk to their PL to talk to the CDR since that is who was authorized to speak on these things. Worse was the NCOs that play Dr. Google. They then think they can tailor PT to a Soldier on profile or when they decide that the Soldier's pace and distance MUST be the unit's pace and distance.<br>

2014-04-07T16:02:16-04:00 2014-04-07T16:02:16-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 95873

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>&lt;p&gt;Chief&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As an NCO I have a medical degree, a social working degree,&amp;nbsp;psychologist, marriage counselor, finance advisor, and the list goes on and on&lt;/p&gt;

2014-04-07T16:03:00-04:00 2014-04-07T16:03:00-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 95997

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>There seems to be too much delegating of medical care due to shortages in the healthcare field. Just because a soldier can give emergency aid in the field does not give him/ her license to continue back in garrison. The system of "sick call" has been stretched so far out of whack that we now have privates up to NCO's doing a PA or MD'S job. This is not only dangerous but unfair to our soldiers.  The term'Doc' has been given too much authority.  Unfortunately this will not be addressed until a soldier is given information that leads to death.

2014-04-07T18:42:01-04:00 2014-04-07T18:42:01-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 96266

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>&lt;p&gt;Chief,&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My recommendation is this, If there is ever a doubt on the limits of the profile, have the NCO&#39;s consult with the BN Medics.&amp;nbsp; Without violating HIPAA we can provide guidance and clarification to the leadership as to what the soldier is medically restricted from doing.&amp;nbsp; That being said, the individual leadership of the soldier should not take a profile literally, ie profile says no pushups, but does not say no burpees, ergo the Squad Leader or other NCO attempts to make the soldier do burpees.&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is one of the contributing factors that has led to profiles being written so broadly and appear so restrictive.&amp;nbsp; I have personally seen NCOs push soldiers beyond the intended limitation of a profile while not violating the letter of the profile.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; In once case this has lead to NJP for the NCO.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The reverse is true as well though.&amp;nbsp; I&#39;ve seen soldiers with a no PT profile out playing basketball on their off hours.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;A profile is in effect 24 hours a day.&amp;nbsp; It&#39;s not up to the soldier to decide when to follow the profile.&amp;nbsp; &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

2014-04-07T22:50:32-04:00 2014-04-07T22:50:32-04:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 106388

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Good point Chief. All too often this seems to be the case. As a medic, I'm pretty good at figuring out civilian profiles, but I tell my soldiers if they get injured to the point where they need to go see a civilian doc, bring that paperwork in to me so that I can then have them immediately follow up with the unit PA. NCOs not familiar with anything medical, short of CLS, should defer passing judgement on injured soldiers to the SMEs, ie the medics, PA, BDE Surgs, etc.<br>

2014-04-19T23:36:17-04:00 2014-04-19T23:36:17-04:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 128821

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I think this particular issue comes down to two things: first, knowing your Soldiers. Most issues that most folks end up complaining about would be resolved if leadership would take a minute to pay attention to their Soldiers. If my Soldier came back to me after an accident or something serious and told me that the TMC just told them to essentially drive water and drive on, there would be some issues. ..with that, there are malingerers. Knowing your Soldiers and seeing what they are capable of under normal, healthy circumstances prevents us from throwing that label on folks that it shouldn't be thrown on, and identifying the people that that label truly fits. <br />The second is that, despite the urging of the most gung-ho NCO, the Army is a marathon, not a sprint. I would much rather a Soldier have the opportunity to get out of the Army on his or her own terms, and not on a medical chapter. I know what I am, and a doctor is not one of them. There is nothing so important that I have to put my Soldier's health in danger, especially for something like morning PT. If a Soldier of mine comes up to me saying he is hurt, he is going to the proper channels to get fixed, and he is going to follow that channel's guidance to the letter.

2014-05-17T13:52:59-04:00 2014-05-17T13:52:59-04:00 SSG Genaro Negrete 133379

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I&#39;ve seen this happen many times. Often, the NCO in question gets set straight by either the medics, or someone senior to him in a less than friendly conversation. <br /><br />I&#39;ve also had many platoon sergeants come to be trying to prove a soldier is malingering. We had a hell of a time trying to establish a pattern of fraudulent visits for medical care. The issue, as explained to me by my PA, is that providers are supposed to treat the pain as described by the patient. There is no empirical way to prove a patient&#39;s pain is in fact a 9 out of 10. The provider has to go off that, among other things, to see if the treatment plan is working. So proving malingering in a Soldier would take a long history of ineffective treatment coupled with a fluctuating story regarding his pain scale, events leading up to the injury, or any other details along his treatment plan. It&#39;s easier to prove the soldier is violating their treatment plan than it is to say they are malingering.<br /><br />If the unit is authorized a PA on it&#39;s MTOE, then that&#39;s usually the first person to go to for clarification. I&#39;ve had infantry team leaders bring me their soldier&#39;s profiles looking for clarification and I pass it by the PA.<br /><br />If you don&#39;t have a PA readily available, a phone call to the profiling physician may be in order. If it becomes an issue about HIPAA, the commanding officer can get involved. They are allowed more leeway due to the command position they are in.<br /><br />If a soldier has physical limitations put on paper from a civilian physician, then it has to be put on a DA 689 or DA 3349 by a military physician. This ensures the physician (who is supposed follow profiling standards IAW AR 40-501, Standards of Medical Fitness) properly translates the limitations into &quot;Army speak&quot;.<br /><br />Essentially, the profiling process is a recommendation for the solider so that they can get better. There is an allowance for commanders to order soldiers to violate all or part of their profile if it is absolutely necessary to accomplish the mission. This isn&#39;t typically enforced because there are few situations (outside of combat) that a commander would take the risk of further physical damage to a soldier and having to explain it to higher (ie, higher command, or MEB members)<br /><br />As for the regulation saying profiled soldiers must at all times carry a copy of their profile, I know I read it somewhere but can&#39;t, for the life of me, find it again. It would still qualify as a lawful order from any level of the NCO support channel or the Chain of Command. Even if I trust my soldier entirely, if he says he&#39;s on a profile, I need to read the exact limitations imparted by that profiling officer. It&#39;s not something I&#39;m going to take someone&#39;s &quot;word&quot; for it.

2014-05-23T11:57:15-04:00 2014-05-23T11:57:15-04:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 137278

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I have a permanent profile for a knee injury and have seen the NCOs that think they have an MD. I think that they see everyone in the same group. For example everyone with a broken arm should heal in the same way and in the same amount of time. What they fail to understand is that everyone's body is different and every injury is different and thus take different amounts of time to heal. Even then they think that some injuries will fully heal because someone else had a similar injury that did. I folded my right knee completely backwards and can tell you that just because you break your knee, it doesn't mean that you will fully heal. There are other factors with my injury that make it different from just simply a broken knee. <br /><br />With that said, I have seen soldiers that abuse their profile. You will see soldiers that have a minor injury that are given a no run profile only to see them walking the PT track like they are taking a stroll down the beach. The point of PT is to improve (or at least maintain) your physical fitness. Just because soldiers with minor injuries have a no run profile doesn't mean that they can't walk fast to get their heart rate up and work the muscle groups in their legs. I at one point walked at 25:15 for the walk event for a record PT test. I know it is only pass/fail but I was trying to get something out of it. I can say that after 7 years with the no run profile, I was able to get my profile lifted to run at own pace and distance. I still get a lot of crap for not running in formation with the unit but I know that if I do, I will undo all the work I have put in to better myself and heal. <br /><br />Long story short, only a doctor can tell what the soldier can and cannot do and how long it will take to heal. Don't group all profiles together. Not all of us are shaming or malingering. If you feel your soldier is shaming, have to commander get more information from that soldiers doctor on what the extent of the injury is, what the treatment is, and what the estimated healing time will be.

2014-05-28T20:37:12-04:00 2014-05-28T20:37:12-04:00 SSgt Private RallyPoint Member 181949

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><a class="dark-link bold-link" role="profile-hover" data-qtip-container="body" data-id="170954" data-source-page-controller="question_response_contents" href="/profiles/170954-cw2-jonathan-kantor">CW2 Jonathan Kantor</a> Most of us are MDs, along with firefighters, astrophysicists and demolitionalists.

2014-07-19T16:59:43-04:00 2014-07-19T16:59:43-04:00 SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member 189482

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>To say NCOs makes you sound angry and sends the wrong message. It's a trend in the Military. I've seen Officers do this at the Command level. <br /><br />Take responsibility, if your profile expires and you are still hurt go get reevaluated and keep your documents on you. We as NCOs and Officers are The examples our<br />future leaders look at to emulate...<br />Let's do The right thing

2014-07-29T20:47:14-04:00 2014-07-29T20:47:14-04:00 PFC Eric Minchey 224231

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>That's &amp; good question. Here's another one along the same line: Where does the military get the idea that Water+Motrin =Cure for everything. ?

2014-09-01T13:47:30-04:00 2014-09-01T13:47:30-04:00 PFC Eric Minchey 224261

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Here's another one: Why is it automatically assumed that SM is faking if they ask to go to sick call before PT test, Deployment, or something of that nature? Why is the possibility that the timing of the SM's illness or injury is just a coincidence never considered?

2014-09-01T14:17:44-04:00 2014-09-01T14:17:44-04:00 SFC Walter Mack 225676

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I have a better question. I have a great deal of respect for doctors and the level of intelligence it requires to attain their position, but I also work with them. Many have such a broad spectrum of practice that it's difficult to manage the specifics of each disease process or injury. That's why experts in a specific field, such as myself, and far more importantly the therapists that work for me, are required to aid the MD in making wise and well informed decisions. That said, it's ultimately their license, and their decision.<br /><br />Many doctors can no more diagnose whether knee pain exists or not any better than an NCO. They can check all the proper range of motion, push on the correct ligaments and ensure the proper stability exists. They can even take x-rays, but sadly, if the Soldier claims knee pain, the provider often relents and provides profile after profile until a good NCO helps the Soldier to find employment elsewhere.<br /><br />This leads me to my question. If a provider has a vast expanse of medical training, but no real education in warfighting at the squad level, what makes them an expert on how to properly train and educate killers of men? These are two different worlds, with two realms of expertise, both of which are very important to our mission.<br /><br />My first eight years were with the Infantry, while the following ten have been medical. I have suffered my fair share of injuries. I've sought medical care in all cases, but have only gotten Motrin &amp; water, and I'm still as fit as a 20 year old Soldier, despite a few pops and grinds.<br /><br />The point is this, sometimes you just have to train Soldiers, Marines, Sailors and Airmen to be men and women, to be killers, to remember that we do what we do to end lives, not to work 9-5 and make widgets. I always strive to make the best decisions for my Soldiers. I do not neglect their profiles. The simple statement that they are injured is enough to allow them to guard that injury during PT.<br /><br />However, if they are prone to injury, weak because they allow the injury to atrophy from excessive rest and lack of physical therapy, or I feel they are genuinely malingering, they will not reenlist. Given the opportunity, I will find them employment elsewhere. <br /><br />The simple fact is that each NCO is responsible for the lives of their men and women. The MD is simply responsible for not screwing up medically, which is rules and BS getting in the way of them actually taking care of our service members.<br /><br />Understand that the NCO is working to refine warfighters into a well oiled machine that works so smoothly that everyone comes home to hug their spouses, kids, mothers and fathers at the end of a deployment. This responsibility is greater than that of the MD. I'm sorry, but each NCO's judgment has to be relied upon as long as their Soldiers will follow them into the fire with the confidence that they will someday arrive home again safely. This is why we win wars.

2014-09-02T21:50:40-04:00 2014-09-02T21:50:40-04:00 Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member 275497

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Why would you not have a copy of your profile, or give a copy to the person running the PT program? That is the whole point of putting it in writing.

2014-10-12T21:52:16-04:00 2014-10-12T21:52:16-04:00 Cpl Chris Rice 275595

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>It is unfortunate that so many people on here have the top priority of rooting out malingerers. Honestly of all of the Junior Enlisted I met, there was only one person that I felt was guilty of malingering, on the other hand it seemed like every Sgt was on light duty for something that kept them from running with the formation, but felt good enough to run with the SSgt after work when they felt they could earn some brownie points. This phenomenon of the more senior enlisted actually being the “hypocritical malingers” is so well known that it made it into Terminal Lance (<a target="_blank" href="http://terminallance.com/2010/09/24/terminal-lance-67-hypocratic-malingerers/">http://terminallance.com/2010/09/24/terminal-lance-67-hypocratic-malingerers/</a>). <br /><br />I think the problem in the Marine Corps at least is that Corporal has been completely displaced (In the Air Wing at least) in the task of planning and executing PT. I could have told you which of my guys needed a break, and who was whining, but I was relegated to silently follow the one or two unbroken Sgt, SSgt, or Gunny as they ran PT, who could not even tell you the names of the people in my shop without their nametapes. <br /><br />I think I agree with the OP, and being required to carry around your chit (Papers please) is stupid. You should place your chit with the admin section, and it will be on file; if there is a question about the validity than it can be referenced there. In the end service member who states that they are on limited duty and cannot perform the exercise is doing nothing wrong, but if they are lying they need to be burned. It is not appropriate to have the argument at PT, nor is it good for the unit to feel that they are not trusted at the word at least in the moment. This is the US military; the NCOs and SNCOs need to quite trying to turn it into a bureaucratic nightmare. <div class="pta-link-card answers-template-image type-default"> <div class="pta-link-card-picture"> <img src="https://d26horl2n8pviu.cloudfront.net/link_data_pictures/images/000/003/814/qrc/2010-09-24-Strip_67_Malingering_web.gif?1443024498"> </div> <div class="pta-link-card-content"> <p class="pta-link-card-title"> <a target="blank" href="http://terminallance.com/2010/09/24/terminal-lance-67-hypocratic-malingerers/">Terminal Lance - Terminal Lance #67 “Hypocritical Malingerers”</a> </p> <p class="pta-link-card-description">While I won’t discount the notion of malingering being a real phenomenon within the Corps, I think it is often overtly accused by higher command when they want something out of you. This is an entirely true story, almost word for word, that happened in my platoon. Our platoon sergeant and platoon commander at the time had literally accused everyone of malingering, while they themselves were actually light duty, as they told us literally within...</p> </div> <div class="clearfix"></div> </div>

2014-10-12T23:38:22-04:00 2014-10-12T23:38:22-04:00 SGT Kristin Wiley 331276

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Sometimes I wonder if military doctors even hold valid medical degrees...<br />I think many people know where you are coming from Chief. Medical profiles do not mean that the soldiers are not physically capable of performing an activity, but that the activity could potentially worsen the medical condition. I put together a team for the annual Marine Corps Base Hawaii Swamp Romp, which was basically a 4-mile walk through mud. I come back into work on Monday and get accused of being a faker because my command believes I am unable to run...(yet they make me run during PT anyways). It took us an hour and a half to complete 4 miles, I do not see how that could be considered a 'run', and my profile does not say anywhere that I am incapable of running. No one has ever asked what my permanent profile is for, or how my medical condition affects my activities. Honestly my profile should probably be more stringent, seeing as I have two medical conditions that are cause for referral to the IDES. Nobody knows this, nobody cares, but by golly if something is not written on that little piece of paper it's the end of the world. I don't like doing things that hinder my health, but sometimes it's not worth the fight. You don't even want to hear about the time I asked about having my inhaler during PT...

2014-11-17T17:28:56-05:00 2014-11-17T17:28:56-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 331352

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>As an NCO, you are directly responsible for the performance of your Soldier. There failure is your failure, and physical fitness is a high-vis portion of the measurement of a Soldiers performance. Therefore, when a Soldier is on a profile, you as a leader feel that they are being "sold short." So, as a leader, most feel that unless we help push them through the injury, they will continue to be injured and done an injustice.<br /><br />Do I agree? Not at all.

2014-11-17T18:11:37-05:00 2014-11-17T18:11:37-05:00 SPC James Mcneil 425425

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I was being processed for a medical discharge for a knee injury when the rear D NCOIC decided that the next day was going to be a "road march day." However, my profile specifically forbid road marches, and I was being discharged for that injury. I already knew by this point to carry a copy of my profile around with me at all times, and I had learned to keep back up copies in case the first one was damaged (got wet, torn, etc). <br />This NCO called my office to let us know that the next day was a road march day and what we were to do. "Show up at 0600 with PT uniform and boots with a rucksack that weighs 35 lbs" or something like that. <br />I showed up in PT uniform, but because of my profile I knew better than to try a road march so there were no boots and no rucksack. She went off. She told me she was going to see me getting an article 15 because I had disobeyed the direct order of a sergeant. I calmly asked her if I should obey her order or the major's order that gave me the profile. She said I was "full of shit" (her words) and wanted the major's number. I said, "Don't worry. He'll be calling you."

2015-01-19T14:21:38-05:00 2015-01-19T14:21:38-05:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 446008

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Even being a medic with a wealth of medical knowledge I would never presume that what a MD had written was wrong. I understand as an instructor that a lot of troops play the system and ride profiles. I think those that have been in longer do it more because they know the system. Some leaders are trying to be so authoritative that they think they are the be all, know all of the army.

2015-01-30T22:44:42-05:00 2015-01-30T22:44:42-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 476576

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>At the end of the day, if they don't pass the APFT or tape, use proper protocol and chapter them out accordingly. <br /><br />Think of the big picture. When you recklessly direct somebody to injury themselves and they get out with disability and such, you basically give them a paycheck for life. I don't know about you. But I think my tax dollar can be better used somewhere. <br /><br />Of course, I am not saying that people shouldn't deserve medical care or disability benefit.

2015-02-14T20:25:55-05:00 2015-02-14T20:25:55-05:00 MAJ Private RallyPoint Member 476610

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I ran into this issue frequently as a young Medic in 2ID and later (especially,) in the 82D Airborne. Didn't get better as an NCO either, actually, it got worse, because I had numerous NCOs, and a few Officers tell me that I wouldn't inspire confidence in Soldiers that I looked different from. That may have been the case in some instances, but I didn't notice. Nevertheless, I have had a great career overall, and it is now much easier as a PA to tell people to stay in their lane.

2015-02-14T20:41:56-05:00 2015-02-14T20:41:56-05:00 CPT Private RallyPoint Member 476688

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I have seen this a lot. First, a lot feel that they are doing the Army a favor by identifying a malingerer. They are trying to interject their own medical experiences and place it on that of their troops. It doesn't work.<br /><br />The problem is that they are not familiar with it. They may see it, so they are familiar with the Admin side of it, but not with the multitude of associated conditions. Even medical folks can be guilty of this. With my own condition, my NCM told me "You are not allowed to do PT. Here is your dead mans profile." My condition is episodic, so some days I am perfectly good, some days I hate life and struggle to function normally. We are still trying to identify triggers, because there are many different problems that exist in the same area. As such, it is hard to say which condition is flared and how. <br /><br />But finally I had to put my foot down and tell her that I NEEDED to be allowed to do PT or else I will fail ht/wt/tape because I have the metabolism of a 90 year old woman. She was hesitant, but finally understood that I have the medical/profiling background, and would be willing to push the spirit of the profile while attempting to maintain the expectations of a Soldier.<br /><br />The problem comes down to medical providers partially as well. Docs are super nice and caring, but they will generally give you what you want. As such, it enhances the ability of the Soldier to malinger. Yes, this isn't an absolute, but it does happen. Some providers aren't ALLOWED to ask the questions needed to determine malingering, and others are afraid of having a congressional inquiry launched because of misdiagnosis. There are so many factors that come in...but ultimately the Soldiers that seek a profile for a medical condition to dodge an administrative repercussion are the root cause of the problems in the Army.<br />v/r,<br />CPT Butler

2015-02-14T21:19:06-05:00 2015-02-14T21:19:06-05:00 CPT Private RallyPoint Member 477397

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I feel your pain and frustration.

2015-02-15T07:51:09-05:00 2015-02-15T07:51:09-05:00 SGT Private RallyPoint Member 532478

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I went through something similar myself. I had a hernia and my follow up appointment to reassess my profile/set surgery date was on a Monday. My profile ran out on the Friday before hand due to the doctor having a family emergency and rescheduling my appointment. Instead of allowing me to continue my "profile PT" I was forced to go to sick call and get a ONE DAY profile, in the process missing PT altogether. I still don't understand that logic to this day. Sometimes common sense should take over.<br /><br />Simple fix, trust your soldier to do the right thing only he/she knows their body. If there is any doubt that they are malingering speak with the command who can request a specific set of exercises from the doctor that the soldier can perform without risking greater injury. What is the purpose of making a soldier exercise if they are hurt? If you feel you are going to lose control of your squad or platoon because one soldier isn't participating in pt for a few days then you have bigger issues than a profile. If you are willing to risk permanent injury or worse because you don't trust your soldiers then you have bigger problems as well.<br /><br />One last story... In basic, day one, I watched a soldier get smoked because everyone thought he was shaming. A few hours later he was in the hospital with organ failure he eventually recovered and has been serving ever since. Sometimes people are telling the truth, if you cant trust your soldiers, again, you have bigger problems, but also you have avenues to approach the situation that don't endanger your career and most importantly others health.

2015-03-15T22:47:34-04:00 2015-03-15T22:47:34-04:00 SGT Melvin Beard 2111529

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>During my stint at Fort Ord, Ca. 87-90, I hurt my back very badly. I actually had to wear a cast on my right foot (I found out years later I had actually broken it and it wasn&#39;t set properly.) Since I didn&#39;t complain of my back injury, (which I did many times and was refused (by my NCO&#39;s)I was refused time to go to a real doctor) I found out years later that I had smashed my tailbone and lower vertebrae. So Now I sit uncomfortably, in pain many days. Some are better than others and get refused for a rating since It wasn&#39;t reported in my med files... I did talk about it during out processing but not one Doctor took notes or even looked at me for back pain. I was just cleared to ETS.

2016-11-27T10:28:30-05:00 2016-11-27T10:28:30-05:00 MSG Private RallyPoint Member 2111939

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>yes you are responsible to have your profile with you at all times

2016-11-27T13:01:35-05:00 2016-11-27T13:01:35-05:00 MSG Private RallyPoint Member 2111992

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>yes there are skammers and yes there are actually profiled sm&#39;s, that&#39;s when you as a leader need to document and continue to document, sm&#39;s with a legit profile will have that in their possession, not the temp kind but the perm kind, those that have had temp profiles are they current or past due, then you have as in reserve oh I went to the er last night I cant do apft, drill weekend after drill weekend, documentation, that 2nd lt is now gone, as well as the other malingeres using the system, myself 31 years 4 knee surgeries perm profile running, my alt walk 2.5 in 30 minutes, so as nco your sm has civi restrictions send to military docs for official profile, otherwise what you do against medical advise civi or military could end up causing you a butt load of hurt, the difference here is ac vs rc

2016-11-27T13:28:12-05:00 2016-11-27T13:28:12-05:00 SSG Kyle Stromgren 2114161

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Every joe is just trying to get over Chief don&#39;t you know. Yes it has been a problem for a long time the military tends to use people up then put them out when they can no longer perform it is hard. I had plantar flachitius for 6 years and was on a no running profile and then the last year befor retirement I had a P3 on my shoulder but I was over 18 so the med board let me stay it was very stressful going into the board.

2016-11-28T09:51:34-05:00 2016-11-28T09:51:34-05:00 MSG Dan Castaneda 2117991

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>It doesn&#39;t take a MD to recognize malingering. We as NCOs can pin point that stuff a mile away.

2016-11-29T12:36:52-05:00 2016-11-29T12:36:52-05:00 Sgt Joseph Baker 2119180

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I broke a finger in boot camp and had a gutter cast on my right arm. Obviously I wasn&#39;t doing much with that arm for a few weeks. During field training it got soaking wet due to rain and fell apart, so I discarded it. Upon returning to MCRD one of my DIs called me out for a &#39;thrash&#39;, so I complied. I &#39;thrashed&#39; for about 30 minutes which will burn you down, other Marines know what I am talking about here. I was in the middle of doing pushups on broken finger when Sr. DI comes in and stops us, leaves us at attention. He takes the Jr. DI into the &#39;hut&#39; and haves a conversation that we could hear in the squad bay, not yelling but we could still here it. He was basically asking the Sgt if he had lost his mind, since my activities were restricted by my profile. They were sh**ing bricks that I might tell the doctor at my medical visit scheduled for the next day. The Jr. DI had assumed the missing cast meant I was good to go. I didn&#39;t correct his thinking because this is USMC boot camp, you don&#39;t question the DI&#39;s orders. The Sr. DI called me in and asked why I didn&#39;t tell the other DI, stuff like that. I liked my Sr. DI so I told him rest assured there would be no mention of the thrashing unless it was medically necessary information at my medical visit. Turns out though it was quite painful doing pushups on that finger, it was healed enough no damage was done and they decided to restore me to full duty. So my experience was the NCOs were expected to know at least who had a profile and some idea of the limitations. The Jr. DI treated me a little different after that, I believe because I didn&#39;t report him. I tell this tale for the benefit of NCOs out there still serving that you definitely need to follow the profile or it could cost you. Not your job to play doctor. If you think you have a malingerer, it&#39;s best you discuss this with a superior and let them work the issue. If you are a person on a profile, best to keep it with you. I have permanent disabilities due to traffic accident. I have even had physical therapists or other persons in the medical field tell me to do things that go against the advice of the surgeons that put me back together. I politely tell these non-MDs &quot; I hope you won&#39;t be offended if I prefer the opinion of a surgeon who is head of orthopedic trauma department at our regional trauma center, or the opinion of a board-certified surgeon who is the head of a joint-replacement center, over yours.&quot; So be respectful and mindful of the rank of the person you are addressing, but if you are certain that engaging in a particular activity would go against the direction of your doctor, you should request to speak with the next person in the chain-of-command. It is not in the best interest of whatever branch of the military to which a person belongs to turn you into a person collecting a permanent disability retirement if that can be avoided by following doctor&#39;s orders.

2016-11-29T18:10:00-05:00 2016-11-29T18:10:00-05:00 SMSgt Lawrence McCarter 2472451

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>There are examples that ended badly also where a Military member was forced to do some extensive running by a NCO and that person dropped dead on the running track. He was 21 years old. There may be people that manipulate things to avoid doing what they don&#39;t want to but keep in mind the medical problem may well be real. How would You fell if You were that NCO and the guy You singled out and pushed died because of You ? Something to think about.

2017-04-05T07:50:26-04:00 2017-04-05T07:50:26-04:00 SGT Tomas "Huey" Husted 3916403

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>This too happened to me. I had an injury for a year only because the Army orthopedic surgeon had no idea as to what he was doing. He didn&#39;t have the training to diagnose the true injury and he was a Major in charge of the orthopedic clinic at Darnell Army Hospital in Ft. Hood. I wore a plaster cast for a year. My NCO&#39;s thought I was shaming as the saying went back then. So they found a size 17 rubber over boot and made me wear it. Then they made me drive saying the whole time there was nothing wrong with me, because if there was the surgeon would have found the problem. So I spent 6 months driving M 113&#39;s and jeeps and an occasional deuce and a half. Let me tell you it was not good for my leg. Finally the Major looked me in eye and told me I was faking my injury. I told him that&#39;s why my calf swelled to the size of a football when my cast was off and I was forced to do work that violated my profile. I told him that he was the faker that he was not a doctor. He was pissed. It took a civilian doctor to diagnose me. By the time it was over I had major surgery on my calf. With a good deal of the muscle going in the scrap bucket. Moral to the story report those NCO,s. Don&#39;t let them screw you for life like they did me. Burn them if you can and burn them bad. Because they should not be in the position they are in.

2018-08-27T22:02:42-04:00 2018-08-27T22:02:42-04:00 SGT Tomas "Huey" Husted 3916457

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>My profile was very, very specific. But my NCO,s would not even bother to follow up with my doctor. I came close to losing my whole calf muscle . Instead I lost individual muscle compartments. Now my right leg is considered 40% disabled through the VA.

2018-08-27T22:16:42-04:00 2018-08-27T22:16:42-04:00 2014-04-07T12:25:09-04:00