Why does Army BCT not include Crew Served Weapons in its POI?

SSG Roger Ayscue — Sun, 27 Nov 2022 13:40:29 -0500

I just left a visit with my son who is in AIT. He graduated from BCT last month at Fort Jackson. He is in what we used to call a Combat Support MOS. In conversation it came up that they were shown an M249 and an M240B but did not train on either of those, nor the M203! You have got to be kidding! Not to mention that they did not even see an M-2 .50 Caliber.
Folks, these are not Infantry weapon systems, they are Army Weapon systems.
It was thinking like this that led the Army in the early 2000s to cancel machinegun training for IET soldiers. That had devastating results in combat and as a result I and a couple other NCOs had to rewrite the TSP and POI for heavy machine guns in IET. Now TRADOC has again scrapped machineguns from BCT! What did they need the time for?
How many times will young troops not be taught vital Soldier skills before the powers that be learn?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2022 1:55 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Nov 2022 13:55:29 -0500

Time and funding, more than likely. Only so much time in the day of a BCT for training. Plus, the amount of funds those rounds cost. When I went thru BCT (1993), we had a brief moment to fire 50 rounds from the M-60, a 9mm tracer round from the AT-4, and a chalk/paint round from the M203. I never saw nor fired an M2 .50 in BCT. In fact, from 1993 to 1997 I never once touched a .50. For that matter, it wasn't until '97 or '98 that I fired a M9

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2022 2:00 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Nov 2022 14:00:47 -0500

SSG Roger Ayscue congratulations on your son's completion of BCT.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Nov 27 at 2022 2:11 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Sun, 27 Nov 2022 14:11:59 -0500

The same reason the Marine Corps doesn’t train those weapon systems at Boot Camp. Time and funding. They are introduced in follow on training down the road as needed and ultimately will be on the receiving unit to train them to meet mission requirements.

Not everyone will be hands on with every weapon system when they hit their duty stations and ammunition is a resource.

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Nov 27 at 2022 3:34 PM

MSG Thomas Currie — Sun, 27 Nov 2022 15:34:34 -0500

The content of BCT is always inadequate -- and always will be. There simply isn't the time or money to teach every soldier everything they ought to know for every Skill Level 1 slot in every unit in the Army.

Some of what isn't taught in BCT gets covered in AIT, but AIT has to focus primarily on specific MOS skills and has little time left to cover soldiering skills.

Bottom line: The training base does not produce fully qualified soldiers in any MOS -- never has and never will. That PVT or PFC arriving at his or her first unit still needs a lot of training. Like it or not conducting that training is the job of the NCOs in the unit.

We can all complain about the things that aren't taught in BCT+AIT or in OSUT, and yes, we can all whine and blame it on the "woke" content in those courses (most of that "woke" content comes from Congress, not TRADOC , DA, or DOD). But none of that changes the bottom line and none of that changes the responsibility of NCOs to evaluate and train their soldiers.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Nov 27 at 2022 3:40 PM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Sun, 27 Nov 2022 15:40:35 -0500

Because they are not a critical component of many MOSs.

I technically had three different primary MOSs in the Army. Only the 11Bs had SAWs and 240s on my PLTs MTOE. About half of the MI Companies had the M2 on company MTOE, but even then only a very select few went to get trained.

It was not an MOS skill in anything other than infantry.

Response by SP5 Peter Keane made Nov 27 at 2022 3:46 PM

SP5 Peter Keane — Sun, 27 Nov 2022 15:46:28 -0500

This photo is the first time I saw an M60. Didn't even get to touch it. This was taken at the 25th Division Replacement training in Cu Chi RVN.

Response by 1LT Voyle Smith made Nov 27 at 2022 6:02 PM

1LT Voyle Smith — Sun, 27 Nov 2022 18:02:39 -0500

Guess I’m an antique. When I went through BCT & AIT at Ft Jackson as an 11B10, we trained on the M2 and M1919, as well as the M60. That was in 1966. From there, I went to Ft Benning for OCS and came out a 1542, was immediately assigned to Ft Bragg and the 3SFG. All of nine moths at Ft Bragg and off I went to Vietnam and the 1st Cavalry Division (Air Mobile).

Response by SPC Sam Sterner made Nov 27 at 2022 10:22 PM

SPC Sam Sterner — Sun, 27 Nov 2022 22:22:33 -0500

If your son wanted to fire more weapons have him reclass to 11B.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2022 10:32 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Nov 2022 22:32:57 -0500

We barely touch them in the Infantry Officer Course. The juice isn't worth the squeeze. There 6 tables that all Soldiers have to go through. It is not how we used to train. This is an example of just your M4. If you have a Crew Served Weapon then you would have to qual on your M4 and then your Crew Served Weapon. If he was going to the infantry then it would make sense to do that. If he is going to waste some some bullets just to see what it feels like then I would question what was the training objective. If he were to deploy down the road then he would have to qual on his assigned weapon system. AT the end of the day I would rather have him know his job.

Response by SPC James Neidig made Nov 28 at 2022 2:35 AM

SPC James Neidig — Mon, 28 Nov 2022 02:35:18 -0500

Back In 79 At Marine Basic, We Qualified With M-16s , Threw Grenades And Fam Fired 1911s .
When I Got To My Permanent Duty Station As Huey Aircrew We Were Issued S&W 45 Revolvers And Trained On M-60s , M-2s And GAU-2B Chain Guns

Response by MSgt James Parker made Nov 28 at 2022 6:48 AM

MSgt James Parker — Mon, 28 Nov 2022 06:48:33 -0500

I agree with everything the group has posted and the additional decision by each service component is to rely on the individual units to complete these basic military tasks. This is where the leadership of each small unit has the requirement to complete Fiscal/Annual Training Events. In the event a new join to a unit isn't certified it is on the unit to complete these events per member - this goes into the unit readiness cycle (the deployment decisions come from these statistics.) Those of us in the training arena do the best we can to get our units to a close to 100% as possible, this keeps the boss out of trouble. As a Marine every other year a unit has to complete a Marine Corps Combat Readiness Evaluation (MCCRE), every individual will be evaluated and graded. The unit commander will have the overall grade included on their annual evaluation. A similar process is used for each unit functional area (Administration, Sustainment, etc...). This is why we say training never stops, think of Olympians (their objective is to get the gold). We just want to get to the battlefield, complete the mission and get back home safely. "The more we sweat in training the less we bleed in combat."

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Nov 28 at 2022 7:00 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Mon, 28 Nov 2022 07:00:35 -0500

Lots of solid responses here. While I too could list a few reasons I will stick to unit requirements. Each crew serve is assigned a crew and backup crew. Weapons qualification is performed as well as systems introductions and familiarization.

If units do there jobs and Commanders apply resources appropriately, every Soldier who need to know a certain weapon does.

I do agree that it would be great to get to all of that in entry training, but I am not sure the retention required to put these weapons into action would be gained in entry training. Anyway it is awesome that your Son is a Soldier. God Bless.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2022 12:27 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Nov 2022 12:27:49 -0500

I'll just go onto add:
When I had command of a full legit Quartermaster Unit I looked at my MTOE and authorized equipment and personnel numbers.

I had A LOT of vehicles........... and if the MTOE was perfectly equipped and EVERYHTING was operating TO THE SOLDIER!!!!!!!!!!!!! there was enough seats in vehicles to move every soldier provided that EVERY SINGLE SOLDIER was licensed and a trained TC in the passenger seat. '

Also......... if the MTOE was perfectly assigned personnel wise......... NO ONE COULD BE A SLACKER, meaning those that didn't have licenses or TC training could NOT just sit in the back of an LMTV (truck) for the ride.

So where I am going with this is on top of the issue of crew served weapons none of the soldiers are coming out of AIT with driver licenses. Then, no one is coming out of AIT with the ability to operate the RADIO either.

See where I am steering this........................
We can't shoot
We can't move
We can't communicate

Response by SPC Mason Mullins made Nov 28 at 2022 12:30 PM

SPC Mason Mullins — Mon, 28 Nov 2022 12:30:53 -0500

Had to be a time and funding issue as others mentioned.
I graduated BCT at Jackson and we did the 240, 249, M2, and MK19.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Nov 29 at 2022 11:41 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Tue, 29 Nov 2022 11:41:34 -0500

BCT is just that Basic Training needed to get a civilian into the military mode. AIT teaches the basics of the skills needed to start to perform the MOS. The rest should be taught in the unit.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Nov 29 at 2022 2:31 PM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Tue, 29 Nov 2022 14:31:20 -0500

Chances of FNG getting a pig are slim to none. He would be ammo bearer and assistant gunner before he was gunner. Plenty of time to learn.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2022 6:25 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 Dec 2022 18:25:37 -0500

They took "US Weapons" out of the BCT POI about 3 years ago, not exactly sure why, probably money.

Response by 1SG Frank Rocha made Dec 4 at 2022 1:06 PM

1SG Frank Rocha — Sun, 04 Dec 2022 13:06:43 -0500

Your question is valid but the challenge is that the answer isn't very simple. There was a time that training to be a leader didn't come from any formal school. It came from NCO's and Officers that had "figured things out" and developed a knack for it then subsequently passed it on to their subordinates. This included training on anything to any extent but at some point the military fell into what i have come to call their "age of Aquarius", a term taken from the 70's hippie movement, where they decided that wasn't sufficient and they needed a formal school to develop leaders (instead of through their officers and NCO's) and it has gained traction from there adding more and more to the saturation point we see it at now.

The addition and/or subtraction of specific training in BCT seems to follow this same pattern of logic. They seem to imply that the trust in officers and NCO's at the unit level to train Soldiers adequately in certain disciplines, functions or equipment is so low that they feel they need to do it themselves or conduct it at a time, place and manner that they can be sure the training took place and to standard.

Now I can't be entirely sure but that's my take on it.

Response by SSG Roland Shelton made Dec 9 at 2022 2:04 PM

SSG Roland Shelton — Fri, 09 Dec 2022 14:04:08 -0500

We were trained on 50 cals and m60s when I went through basic.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2022 2:51 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Dec 2022 14:51:21 -0500

It comes down to time. BCT schedules are VERY strict and are set by TRADOC; unfortunately, there isn’t a lot of time dedicated to familiarization of crew serves. Funding is also a huge part; it costs roughly 80k to train one soldier, not including the cost of ammunition, and trainees run through 7.62 like cough drops. Detailed crew serve training just isn’t sustainable.

Response by SPC Bill Bailey made Jan 23 at 2023 2:14 AM

SPC Bill Bailey — Mon, 23 Jan 2023 02:14:10 -0500

When I went through BCT/AIT in the mid 60s we trained on EVERYTHING an 11B would use (I was an 11B) from the M14 to land mines, everything in the Infantryman's catalog before we went to AIT, iirc, it was only about an hour introductory session on each weapon. Some in person, like hand held/crew served weapons, others like landmines were in classrooms.
In AIT we got Advance hands on training on those weapons (inc. one day on Mortars). Later I switched to an 11E (Armor crewman), but I still retained those skills. How much of it I would ever use again would be questionable (I never did), but I had a basic understanding of how to use it should the need arise. To send a non combat arms soldier into an area where trouble may happen suddenly, without warning, as has happened, without the basic skills to operate a light/heavy machine gun or Mk 19 is the same as sending them in unarmed, it's unconscionable.