Why doesn't the Army Frock all of its Senior NCO? The Navy frock theirs. Why are we still in the past?

2015-12-20T12:15:24-05:00

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2015 12:18 PM

2015-12-20T12:18:37-05:00

You will not have to worry about budgetary issues because they are paid once their number hit. E6(P) and above can get the experience without delay.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Dec 20 at 2015 12:21 PM

2015-12-20T12:21:53-05:00

Frocking has advantages and disadvantages.

The disadvantage is wearing a rank and not getting paid for it, and the potential for losing it and your actual rank if something goes wrong.

However, another discussion points to the Army Reg:

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/frocking-in-the-army

Frocking covered in AR 600-8-19
Para 7–10. Frocking

"Frocking" in The Army | RallyPoint

I've seen this brought up within the comments of other discussions here on RallyPoint occasionally. What do you think of the Army instituting a process of "frocking" a soldier to the rank of the position he's occupying? Before I put my opinion forward, I'll say that though I never see this actually happening, it is an interesting hypothetical to ponder.Personally, I don't see why a soldier filling a position higher than his current rank...

Response by SFC Pete Kain made Dec 20 at 2015 1:45 PM

2015-12-20T13:45:08-05:00

Impatient? What's the point of a promotion list if you get frocked?

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Dec 20 at 2015 2:08 PM

2015-12-20T14:08:58-05:00

Frocking has been in and out of vogue on the Navy side. It was always "out" whenever I was selected. For the most part frocking is limited to those who are placed in a higher ranked billet. We see that all the time when they frock Captains to Admiral when they assume the Flag billet. So you get the responsibility without the pay bump. For officers, their UCMJ authority doesn't increase until officially promoted. Frocking has a long history aboard ship. You put on the rank, you were in charge of more things and people, and that was it. I would expect to see an incoming SEL frocked.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2015 11:28 AM

2015-12-21T11:28:26-05:00

The Navy also doesn't pay their senior enlisted for 6 months to a year after they are pinned.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Dec 21 at 2015 11:39 AM

2015-12-21T11:39:59-05:00

This is interesting, I never thought of this and didn't know the Navy did this. Looking fwd to thoughts from folks.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Dec 21 at 2015 12:16 PM

2015-12-21T12:16:48-05:00

A few thoughts on frocking.
- Purpose/summary. Basically a frocking gives an officer/NCO the authority to wear the rank, in some cases obtain the authorities of the rank, but not receive the pay.
- Definition. Frocking is a US military term for commissioned or non commissioned officer selected for promotion wearing the insignia of the higher grade before the official date of promotion (the "date of rank").
- Authorizations. There are approval levels, requirements and Congressional limitations on frockings. In other words, a Soldier can not be frocked just because they are promotable. Restrictions include but not limited to: on approved/confirmed promotion list, not flagged (suspension of favorable personnel actions), not entitled to higher pay/allowances, authority to wear grade of rank will not be recorded in official orders.
- Why doesn't the Army frock all of its senior NCOs? See above. Just because a frocking is technically authorized does not mean it is required in a certain situation or position. We frock because it is needed, not wanted.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2015 1:05 PM

2015-12-21T13:05:32-05:00

Thanks there are some great responses. I understand the proceedures invovled and lets be honest with ourselves. The moment a person gets picked up unit start using the at a different level. How many time do we get a tasker for an E7 and all of a sudden an E6P is thrown in. The response is then "well he/she are promotable." This happens often.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2015 10:36 PM

2015-12-21T22:36:43-05:00

On the Marone side of the house I have only seen Marines get frocked is when a Gunny is selected to be a 1stSgt and is put into that billet

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Dec 21 at 2015 10:40 PM

2015-12-21T22:40:44-05:00

I was selected for promotion about four months before putting on the second star. In the meantime I was an E-8. It was worth waiting for. besides who the frock cares?

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Dec 22 at 2015 8:38 AM

2015-12-22T08:38:40-05:00

Since the concept of frocking a person is a very old concept, and pre-dates our Army and Nation, it is not that the Army is in the 'past' as much as moved past the need of such actions, but it is something that happened a lot more in the past. I think that the reason it is not done more is because their is not a pressing need for it to be done? The Army...every service but the Navy...does not make such a distinction between their upper and lower enlisted, so has less reason to change one's 'coat' to the higher position. Sergeant, when you step in and take charge, do you need an extra stripe or rocker to get soldiers to follow you? If you do, the stripe or rocker is not really going to help.

Response by LTC James Bozeman made Dec 23 at 2015 8:40 AM

2015-12-23T08:40:21-05:00

I understand the concept and previous rationale for Frocking to enable Military leaders to better do his/her job with authority. However you don't always need the rank to get the mission accomplished or earn that respect - as a junior enlisted Soldier I was giving guidance and instruction on automation systems to senior enlisted and Officer personnel in the early 80s, as a junior officer (from LT to LTC) I was a recognized expert and my guidance and authority was sought out by Senior level personnel to do the job - the lesson is that it not always what is on your collar that earns the respect of those who are peers and senior to you - it is what you bring to the fight. I wouldn't worry too much about getting to wear the rank earlier - just perform the job like you own it.

Response by SFC Martin Applegate made Dec 23 at 2015 10:30 AM

2015-12-23T10:30:16-05:00

Frocking is a joke, the Navy plays all kinds of stupid games to make Chiefs seem like gods, they are not trust me. The problem in the Navy is that no one trusts and E6 to get the job done but once he is an almighty Chief he can walk on water or that is what they want you to believe. I was stationed on a Naval base for 5 years, two as a Drill Sergeant, Chiefs had no where near the authority I had over my soldiers Frocked or not. If you told me I had to put a hat in a box and walk around for months with it to gert promoted I would laugh in your face. Grow up Navy and while we are at it stop dressing like women when you go over the equator, another stupid ass ceremony.

Response by SSG Michael Rodriguez made Dec 23 at 2015 10:44 AM

2015-12-23T10:44:33-05:00

One word, Tradition !

Response by MAJ Daniel Flynn made Dec 23 at 2015 11:01 AM

2015-12-23T11:01:12-05:00

Supposed to be cutting a bunch of E-7's according to the rumor mill. Because they're too busy focking them?

Response by SFC James Reeder made Dec 23 at 2015 11:03 AM

2015-12-23T11:03:50-05:00

When I was in Germany, the Army unit I was in allowed a promotable SFC to wear MSG rank without holding a First Sergeant position.

Response by SSG Don Maggart made Dec 23 at 2015 11:32 AM

2015-12-23T11:32:34-05:00

I was Frocked I wore AJ Corporal till I had enough time in grade coming in as a E-3 never hurt me....

Response by 1SG Bill Wayne made Dec 23 at 2015 12:49 PM

2015-12-23T12:49:05-05:00

Remember that s/he that is in charge is normally placed there by date of rank. If you are a frocked E-8 in charge of a section and a date of rank E-8 shows up then you have a small problem. I have in my past life been Frocked 3 times and it is difficult to say the least. A true story. I was an E-7 P in the first gulf war. I was given a company on short notice and frocked to 1sgt. There were 4 E-8s in the company that not only out ranked me but knew me as well. It was very difficult for them to understand. Especially when it came to following instruction. It is better to have the position and maintain your rank.

Response by SFC Michael Hair made Dec 23 at 2015 3:27 PM

2015-12-23T15:27:10-05:00

Pretty simple really, they get you to do the job of a senior person and don't have to pay you. I did 18 months as a First Sergeant deployed to Iraq, my promotion. Packed was jacked up, hard to fix shit in shit hole Iraq. Anyway I said F it and retired when I got back. Non deployable getting promoted that was the travesty of the system. It's ok I am so much better off now :)

Response by SGT Joseph Dutton made Dec 23 at 2015 7:53 PM

2015-12-23T19:53:47-05:00

In the early to mid 80's it has became illegal to promote a person to the next rank called "Acting Jack" without the pay and recorded on official documents like a ID Card. Frocking a person whom is promoted to the next higher grade when a billet was temporally vacant for one reason or another with in a command and it was on limited basis. But too get Frocked one must have passed a promotion test or meet the points to be promoted. But once the original individual came back to full fill his billet the person that was Frocked was demoted and was called a "ADMIN Reduction in Pay and Allowances. But all have this has to be sent up the channels by the command for approval or disapproval. A lot of time, effort and paper work has to be done and is time consuming is why one don't see much of it. It has been over 20 years since I retired so things change and I might not got it all right but that's what I recollect.

Response by CPL Emil Baker made Dec 23 at 2015 10:28 PM

2015-12-23T22:28:01-05:00

I was army in vietnam in 1971 @ my 7 month service anniversary date they promoted me to SP4, and the next day they made me acting SG5, then moved me back to SP4 when I rotated back stateside. I appreciated the experience and training it afforded me. I thought it was a common practice back then

Response by SPC John McKenna made Dec 24 at 2015 8:55 AM

2015-12-24T08:55:16-05:00

Greetings. My son is in the Navy, and was Frocked a while back. I looked it up, and the tradition started back in the days of sail, when a U.S. Navy ship would encounter another one, and have orders for the transfer of one of the officers. To replace him, one of the senior enlisted would be Frocked. That is, the officer being transferred would take off his coat ( only officers had them, could afford them ) and give it to the senior enlisted man, designating him now an officer. So , in fact , today's Frocking in more of an anacronism than something of the present. It is a means of saving the military money, while getting qualified men into positions they are needed in. This is my humble understsanding of Frocking.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2015 12:35 PM

2015-12-24T12:35:06-05:00

I was a SFC in a 1SG position for a while. I like doing the job holding the rank SFC! Just makes it better in my opinion!!!

Response by SFC Edwin Watson made Dec 24 at 2015 1:27 PM

2015-12-24T13:27:52-05:00

The situations are rare that frocking is justified, at least from what I have seen. I have been an acting 1SG for exercises and other reasons when I was the highest ranking available, but I honestly didn't want the position on a permanent basis, as I had too much to do as part of my actual duty position. The few Soldiers I have seen frocked were in over strength positions so they were frocked to give them a job.

Response by COL Ted Mc made Dec 26 at 2015 2:44 PM

2015-12-26T14:44:14-05:00

1SG Private RallyPoint Member - Sergeant; "Frocking" is a form of "Queue Jumping" and the US Army has a long history of insisting that only people who actually hold the substantive rank hold the position appropriate for the rank (in an other than "acting" role) other than during emergencies/wartime.

Another reason is that the number of personnel of any given rank is limited by law and "Frocking" gets around that limitation because the "Frocked" person isn't REALLY holding the rank that they are wearing (and exercising). This is a rather "untidy" situation and most "Army-types" don't like to have "untidy" situations.

The Brits have a lengthy history of using "Brevet/Acting" ranks so that a person with special qualifications can actually do a specific (short-time) job without the handicap of being "under-ranked". Sometimes (usually) the "Brevet" rank is known colloquially as "Acting/Lacking" meaning that the person holding it has all the authority of a person of that rank BUT does not receive the pay and benefits of the rank.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2015 6:58 PM

2015-12-26T18:58:27-05:00

I don't understand the point. In my experience, soldiers know who their leaders are and seniors also know who their subordinate leaders are. This happens regardless of wearing actual rank appropriate to the position with assumed (p) or wearing the rank after promotion

Response by SFC Kenneth Seay made Dec 29 at 2015 7:40 PM

2015-12-29T19:40:47-05:00

Thought I would weigh in on "Army Frocking" from an experience I had when I was stationed with USAREC HQ in FT Sheridan, IL in 1984. Since the fort was very small and near Great Lakes Naval Base a lot of our support including base housing was handled by the Navy. I arrived to USAREC as a SSG(P) therefore going from JRNCO to SRNCO status upon being promoted. Had the Army Frocked me as a SFC I would been offered Senior Enlisted Housing, which was available immediately without a wait. But because the Army never frocked, I only qualify for Junior Enlisted Housing, which had an eight month waiting list. So I had to drive my wife and kids to North Carolina to live with my parents and I lived in a BEQ until housing became available.

Response by SPC Brandon Hamilton made Apr 14 at 2016 3:51 PM

2016-04-14T15:51:06-04:00

I feel that you have "Pay-Dues" first. Second you have to at least have two Special-Duties(Drill Sergeant, Attache NCO) and have 15 years of service under your belt before considered being Frock.

Response by SPC John McKenna made Jul 9 at 2017 7:43 AM

2017-07-09T07:43:43-04:00

I commented on this Frocking term a few years ago. The term originated back in the days of sail, when an enlisted man would get promoted at sea to replace a senior sailor while deployed across the oceans. The senior sailor, before getting off the ship and get aboard another to be transferred, would ceremoniously give his Frock coat to the sailor assuming his rank / billet. With modern technology and communications, there is no NEED to Frock any longer. It is done on-board, underway, nowadays, merely to get around the slowness of the Navy bureaucracy, for practicable purposes. At least that is how my Bubble-head son tells it to me, and the historical sources i have read.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2020 10:27 AM

2020-02-04T10:27:43-05:00

I’m the brigade commander’s senior advisor in both of my duty positions so I figure I should be frocked to O4 lol