Women in Combat, Women of Power

SFC Jim Mergott — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 14:38:51 -0400

Women are now allowed to join some combat MOS’s. I have heard the argument that this is a crazy idea and that it’s just not going to work - all the macho talk that says women are too weak, mentally and physically, to handle the high stress environment of a combat situation. Let’s not forget the all too familiar: “They are going to get someone killed. “

I feel as if to fully grasp and accept the decision, one has to dig deeper into the situation. Look at prehistoric times when men and women were hunters and gatherers. Why were men the hunters? Was it because the woman gave birth and had the means to feed the baby? And therefore she was obligated to stay and take care of the child in the early stages of being a human, thus freeing up the man of responsibility so he could go out and forage and hunt for food? And then because of this, we evolved with our assigned roles as males and females. Or was it because women were inherently weaker? I think that the prehistoric argument holds more weight. If you take a look at history, there are a number of famous examples of women in combat.

There was Joan of Arc, who not only proved her mettle in combat, but proved herself as a leader of an army and set the example of fighting from the front. She was wounded more than once in battle. More recently, there was Mary Hays, more commonly known by her nickname Molly Pitcher. During the Revolutionary War, she was a camp follower of the American 7th Regiment. During the Battle of Monmouth, she took her husband’s spot on a cannon after he collapsed and began loading and firing it. She heroically rallied the troops by her side. A century or so later, during World War II, the Russians used women as fighter pilots and snipers to great effect.

I personally witnessed exceptional performance of women in combat situations in Iraq on more than one occasion - not only as subordinates in supposedly “non-combat MOS’s,“ but as leaders. To be quite honest, there are more than a handful of male soldiers whose performance levels were not even close to comparable to those of some of the women.

In regards to power and leadership, are these men opposed to women in combat really naïve enough to think that male leaders throughout history were not influenced by women? I think men in positions of power, whether they are supervisors for a few individuals or if they are presidents of large corporations, consult with their wives regularly. Think about it. A great example, regardless of how you feel about her politically, is former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. During her tenure as First Lady, do you really believe that President Bill Clinton was making decisions without consulting her? To think so, in my opinion, would be naïve.

It’s easy to go with the currently commonplace thought among male comrades that women just “can’t hang.” I feel that history dictates the opposite. And in reality, women are just as capable as men. Only time will prove me right.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Apr 13 at 2016 2:42 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 14:42:42 -0400

I agree, I think just as we see in the past, history will show that those that decide to serve in that area will be able to preform their jobs to the standard and work well along side others.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2016 2:47 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 14:47:02 -0400

Can women fight and fight well? Yes. History, if nothing else, proves that's not the issue. The issue is whether or not political influence to PROVE they can fight and fight well will ultimately lead to false positives and double standards that will ultimately lower everyone's standards...and in the end, only do more to defame than grant equality.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2016 3:09 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 15:09:31 -0400

I'm on the fence with this. My friend just got accepted into the Navy SPEC OPS and while I'm excited she got through, there are some people who need to have a complete understanding of what entails with combat; the front lines. Honestly if someone is able to deal (bad choice of word) with what entails in combat then I say go for it but there needs to be other guidelines and tests done to make sure this is the right person for the job.

If that has been done for the candidate, then let them serve. If there one small spec of a issue, then it needs to be full investigated and if it causes them to not be able to serve in combat, then there are other means to serve.

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Apr 13 at 2016 3:27 PM

CPT Joseph K Murdock — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 15:27:45 -0400

Women are not as physically capable of men, some of them but not all.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Apr 13 at 2016 5:02 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 17:02:39 -0400

Damn! Well Put.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Apr 13 at 2016 5:37 PM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 17:37:47 -0400

If they can handle a weapon as well as the guys, then let them go for it.

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Apr 13 at 2016 6:03 PM

CPT Joseph K Murdock — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 18:03:39 -0400

How much does the infantry ruck weigh during deployments?

Response by SFC Pete Kain made Apr 13 at 2016 6:15 PM

SFC Pete Kain — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 18:15:38 -0400

Great, Combat related P.T.S.D + P.M.S What could go wrong? Future Shrinks are going to have a field day. (meant in jest don't go postal ladies)

Response by 1SG Charles Hunter made Apr 13 at 2016 7:19 PM

1SG Charles Hunter — Wed, 13 Apr 2016 19:19:48 -0400

“They are going to get someone killed. “ Yeah, war's like that.
Joan of Arc was never an infantry private. She directed the battles.
Prehistoric women were certainly not the weak, fainthearted flowers we associate with Victorian ladies.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Apr 14 at 2016 12:02 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Thu, 14 Apr 2016 12:02:57 -0400

When I was a captain back in the dark ages, the Air Force started allowing women to become pilots. There was a brief flurry of objections and complaints as the women entered the previously all-male force. All of the objections about physical capability, psychological capability, unit capability, and so on that I'm hearing from the Army and Marines were raised. After a decade or so, the previously all-male combat pilot specialties, fighter pilot, C-130 pilot, etc., were opened to women. Now, a lifetime later, I hear no significant complaints about women pilots or those in other aircrew jobs. The Services need to give this time to work itself out. Young Americans are smart and resourceful, male or female. Even more true for those who join the Services. They will find ways to make this work. Give it 20 years, then pass final judgement.

BTW, I know many of my Ground Forces friends will say that the AF doesn't have the demanding jobs that they have. The AF isn't a real military organization. And all the other normal inter-Service stuff we normally get. I ask you to remember that the "front line" troops in the Air Force are officers. The A-10s you love so much when you need air support are flown by officers. They do get shot at while putting fire and steel on target. Air-to-air combat is one of the most physically and mentally demanding activities undertaken by any military person. I was a transport pilot, one of the best jobs in the Air Force. My fighter pilot brothers and sisters deserve great respect as true warriors.

Response by TSgt James Emanuel made Apr 14 at 2016 2:25 PM

TSgt James Emanuel — Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:25:36 -0400

I'm not sure what the question is here, but here are my two cents worth. A leader is someone who has a clear view of the objective and the ability to make sure that those doing the job have the direction, motivation and tools to do the job. In the military, the real leader is not necessarily the highest ranking member of the group. It is the one who is most capable and determined to get the job done. I have read that there are instances in the Special Ops community where a junior ranking member of the unit took charge of a operation simply because that individual had more first-hand knowledge of the situation. I think that we've all come across that individual that had that air of confidence and swagger and you knew instinctively that this was someone that you wanted to work with.

I worked in a shop that was under the thumb of an E-8. He stayed in the office and shuffled papers, talked on the phone and looked very self-important. There was a group of brand new O-1s that came to the squadron for orientation as maintenance supervisors. They were rotated around the different branches to get a complete overview. A young lady 2nd Lt came in the shop and the E-8 made no bones about not wanting her in 'his" shop. Rather than pout or storm off, this officer went out into the shop area and learned about what the troops were doing. I know that I and just about everyone in the shop would have followed her. Showing interest in the people, the job and a desire to do the job right gained for her the respect and admiration of those who someday might work for her.

Response by MAJ Rene De La Rosa made Apr 14 at 2016 5:17 PM

MAJ Rene De La Rosa — Thu, 14 Apr 2016 17:17:55 -0400

Agree with you, SFC Jim Mergott. Have seen and met the young women of today's Army, and they are competitive beasts, (they played soccer, lacrosse, field hockey, etc.) and can out PT some of the males around the base. If they are fit, and have a general stick-to-it-iveness mentality, why not allow them to "be the best that they can be?" Would rather see a STRAC motivated female rather than a lackadaisical male, who is not invested in his men and women he leads. BLUF: If she can complete the training, have at it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2016 11:36 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Apr 2016 23:36:34 -0400

A very superficial argument to be sure (mostly based apparently, on anecdotal and predominantly mythical traits attributed to historical figures, such as Joan D' Arc, and Molly Pitcher, and an irrelevant reference to Hillary, when there are much better examples to make the females in power/leadership point). Read my article published a year ago, for a more relevant treatment of the greater issues at stake in the argument, as it relates to women in the combat arms/SOF communities at war. "Why should women be excluded from professional "contact" sports, and yet be considered for the profession of "combat arms?" May 2015

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2016 1:29 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Apr 2016 01:29:28 -0400

My thoughts on this is if they can pass the test the same way a male can by doing the same things a male does and can, let them go for it. To each their own.

Response by SSG Loyd Gant made Apr 15 at 2016 2:41 AM

SSG Loyd Gant — Fri, 15 Apr 2016 02:41:26 -0400

back in 93' before retiring w\ 20yrs+ combat infantry i would have been a strong opposition against it, but the armed services have changed dramatically l'm not certain that any of the services actually walk long distances i may give prop's to some of special op's including but not limited to air borne and 10th mtn, looking at the equipment drones and carriers and modular systems everyone in the armed services are frontline fighters as no clearly defined line "to close with and destroy the enemy by means of etc....."

Response by Cpl Terry Williams made Apr 16 at 2016 1:52 PM

Cpl Terry Williams — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 13:52:45 -0400

This is a not a Military decision, this is a political decision, a political football, that will get military men and military women unnecessarily killed in combat. It's not about the WM in a combat roll, it's about the Jarhead who thinks it's his sole responsibility to be concerned with her safety over his and those other Jarheads in his squad. My opinion.

Response by CPT Cedric Rice made Apr 16 at 2016 6:23 PM

CPT Cedric Rice — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 18:23:54 -0400

agree..it wasn't too long ago that minorities were thought to be unfit

Response by SPC Greg K. made May 19 at 2016 1:29 PM

SPC Greg K. — Thu, 19 May 2016 13:29:43 -0400

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G76NUs4ccmg

Women On The Front Lines - TheBlaze

Why is bringing women to the front lines a bad idea?

Response by SFC Wayne Robinson made Jun 16 at 2016 10:58 PM

SFC Wayne Robinson — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:58:39 -0400

you analogy of Hillary clinton is a poor example of women in leadership positions. Condelece Rice
is more qualified as a leader than Hillary will ever be. There are more qualified women Clara Barton for example. Please don't use Hillary as a role model. It looks bad for women!

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Jun 28 at 2016 12:19 PM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Tue, 28 Jun 2016 12:19:11 -0400

HRC just has too much baggage, and Benghazi, Libya....

Response by Sarah Zayas made Aug 8 at 2017 1:29 PM

Sarah Zayas — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 13:29:45 -0400

I believe each person should be judged on their character and physical abilities. Yes a woman will face more discrimination and even hatred from men but I'm sure the woman who is charging into combat is well aware of her obstacles. Its unfortunate that women have to face enemies within their own team as well as the enemy outside. We can't tell an individual what they are capable of we can only prepare them for the worst.

Response by SGT Mark Hasch made Jul 16 at 2018 8:42 AM

SGT Mark Hasch — Mon, 16 Jul 2018 08:42:07 -0400

I'm no longer in, so "I" feel my comments will be ok, lol
I've always dreamed of some hot chick picking me up laying me gently across her shoulder and carrying me to a soft, sweet, warm place and tending to my wounds while the bombs burst in mid air and "O" crap!!!!!!! We're under attack!!!
Sorry but that's how I feel and honestly probably what would happen(at least to me, lol) to me!!! I would definitely say the.wrong thing(I'm always told) or look to long at a beautiful woman(hey I like women!!!
If a woman can lift a 250-275 lb man with full body armor and gear and Fireman Carry that man 50-75 yards then whoa for her but when a woman huff and puffs her way to the top you then have a politician!!! (No offense intended) I don't care if you swing or you ding, I do care about the mission and safety of the soldiers!!!

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Jul 16 at 2018 4:59 PM

Lt Col Charlie Brown — Mon, 16 Jul 2018 16:59:46 -0400

Well said. Not everyone is suited to combat but that applies to both sexes. Israeli women serve in combat and do it well.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 16 at 2018 5:54 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 16 Jul 2018 17:54:36 -0400

I am all for equality, however, I am concerned about them depreciating their bodies due to the MOS.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2018 8:08 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Jul 2018 20:08:14 -0400

If their injury rates and suicide rates stay at par or below the men then fine. Currently the sucide rate among the Veterans is high and in the news recently we learn that it include Active Duty as well.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Dec 18 at 2019 10:33 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Wed, 18 Dec 2019 10:33:56 -0500

Every time there is a long term study of women in Combat units that require physical strength and stamina, the results always come back the same, women on average perform at a much lower level than their male counter parts and their rate of serious injuries is much higher that their male counter part. I'm sure that there are some exceptional women that can make it through Ranger School, does that mean that they will be able to withstand the rigors of combat operations without injuries beyond those of the male members. The study done by the Marine Corp said no, they couldn't and that report echoed the criticism of the IDF's integration of women into combat roles also. So the issue should be is this worth the effort or are we accepting a lower standard, but placing them in situations where serious injuries from normal duty are common. https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/97564/idf-questioning-presence-female-soldiers-combat-units/

IDF Questioning Presence of Female Soldiers in Combat Units

The IDF is freezing the draft rate of combat positions for women to reassess the mental and physical consequences on female soldiers who have served.

Response by MSG Mike V made Jan 5 at 2024 9:49 AM

MSG Mike V — Fri, 05 Jan 2024 09:49:16 -0500

This is just another bit of DEI bullshit!! I was an SWCS instructor for years and I know first hand how they lower the standards and give women several chances they don’t give the men. It’s just a physical impossibility for the majority of women period! If there was some that could make it fine but so far none that I have seen have made it legit, there was always a lowering of the standard for this circus sideshow! Every Ranger and SF guy knows that no woman can join a team and cary a 120lb ruck and the heavy weapons so if they get to a team they will have to redistribute the weight. Y’all know it! Sad to see what they did to the military with all this bullshit DEI transtesticle crap. Glad I retired when it started!

Response by 1SG John Millan made Feb 22 at 2024 7:39 PM

1SG John Millan — Thu, 22 Feb 2024 19:39:17 -0500

Just stop lowering standards.