CSM Mike Maynard 23724 <div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>You&#39;re the CSM and you have a Platoon Sergeant that has just failed either the Army Physical Fitness Test or the Army Body Composition Program........&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Leave him in position or remove him?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Defend your answer.&lt;/div&gt; 2013-12-19T08:18:27-05:00 CSM Mike Maynard 23724

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>You&#39;re the CSM and you have a Platoon Sergeant that has just failed either the Army Physical Fitness Test or the Army Body Composition Program........&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Leave him in position or remove him?&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;Defend your answer.&lt;/div&gt;

2013-12-19T08:18:27-05:00 2013-12-19T08:18:27-05:00 SFC Rocky Gannon 23726

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>CSM, this is a good and tought questions, expecally if s/he is otherwise a squared away NCO. I would have to say, remove him/her. The Platoon Sergeant is the Standards Bearer in that Platoon, and if they can't meet the standards how can they hold others accountable. I have never been a fan of do as I say not as I do. So as good of a NCO they might be, they need another job for now to work on their short falls.

2013-12-19T08:22:20-05:00 2013-12-19T08:22:20-05:00 SFC Michael Hasbun 23736

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Is there a replacement of equal or greater competence available? The standards are obviously important, but the Soldiers being taken care of is more so. From a subordinates perspective, is I'd much rather have a PLT SGT that did his job well, regardless of APFT status. On the flip side, I don't really care if my PLT SGT is a 300 plus if he isn't taking care of his people...<br /><br />So basically, I'd replace him only if I KNEW his replacement was as competent or greater..

2013-12-19T08:40:00-05:00 2013-12-19T08:40:00-05:00 SFC William Swartz Jr 23738

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I would have to say remove him/her from that position...not only are NCOs supposed to be the standard-bearers for the Army, PSGs ARE the standard-bearer for their platoon. As a Corps we cannot have the "Do as I say, not as I do" mentality, we must as leaders, NCOs, be able to meet all requirements that we expect out of our Soldiers, period. Now if said PSG is able to "rehabilitate" themselves, the opportunity to lead should be given to that individual, but I would recommend that they not be placed back into the unit that they came from.

2013-12-19T08:43:27-05:00 2013-12-19T08:43:27-05:00 MAJ Private RallyPoint Member 23764

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I'd remove him/her from their position and place someone who can fill that position and maintain/exceed standards.  Being in any green tab position - you're a mentor/role model; how can I expect that person to be such if they can't meet all the requirements/standards expected of them?  Soldiers will see him/her as a failure and then view the higher CoC as failures for not doing anything about it - which could result in junior Soldiers thinking it's ok if you don't meet the Army standards (physical/academic/tactical/etc..) because they will have the attitude that the CoC won't do anything about it.  Just my .02

2013-12-19T09:28:43-05:00 2013-12-19T09:28:43-05:00 SSG Robert Burns 23767

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>&lt;p&gt;I love this quesiton because I had this discussion with my 1SG a few years back when one of my battle&#39;s was in this is exact position.&amp;nbsp; I say move him immediately.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;1.&amp;nbsp; He&#39;s a leader.&amp;nbsp; You lead by example and what is his example?&amp;nbsp; His poor example will spread through his platoon.&amp;nbsp; It will be very difficult for him to enforce anything.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;2.&amp;nbsp; That position is too competitive and sought after to have failures in it.&amp;nbsp; There is absolutely no excuse to fail APFT or Body Comp at that level.&amp;nbsp; This shows lack of discipline and diligence, both unfit for that position.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;3.&amp;nbsp; He has at least 4 squad leaders who should be able to step into that position the same day.&amp;nbsp; The platoon should keep marching without a change step.&amp;nbsp; If he repairs and no one has come in to replace him, its a great example for his troops to see that EVERYONE is held to the standard and at the same time, everyone can still repair after they screw up.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There&#39;s just no good reason to leave him.&lt;/p&gt;

2013-12-19T09:32:36-05:00 2013-12-19T09:32:36-05:00 SGM Matthew Quick 23771

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Remove him.<br><br>This is not leading by example.<br><br>In today's post-war downsizing environment, the Army is raising/re-enforcing our standards and chaptering junior leaders and Soldiers for similar failures.<br><br>Quickly removing this Platoon Sergeant from his leadership position will set a precedence for all that witness this...if you cannot lead by example, you cannot lead our Soldiers.<br>

2013-12-19T09:49:12-05:00 2013-12-19T09:49:12-05:00 CPT Private RallyPoint Member 23809

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>If it is a first time event AND there are extenuating circumstances (injury, illness, etc.) AND the NCO is squared away in all other areas, you might be able to let a single instance pass; it will have to be looked at on a case by case basis.</p><p> </p><p>Otherwise, remove them.  SFC Gates, I understand your perspective but, as many here have stated, the PLT SGT is the Standard Bearer for his PLT and MUST set the example.  If I were a PLT SGT again and reached the point where I could not meet the basic standards, I would go to the 1SG and CSM and ask to be moved.  I have dealt with and continue to deal with severe injuries that make PT extremely challenging but if you are in a leadership position, you either overcome or step aside.  I also feel there should be no shame in stepping aside if you have a legitimate reason that you cannot perform; the units I have been in over the past few years have often moved an individual into a staff position when necessary (i.e. severe combat injury, traumatic family issues, major medical problem) and then moved them back to the green tab position when the problem was resolved.  </p><p> </p><p>Remember, a leadership position is not about YOU, it is about your Sodiers! To quote something you are all familiar with:  "My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind, the accomplishment of the mission and the welfare of my soldiers."  </p><p>If an NCO's 'issues' are preventing them from meeting this basic tenent of the creed, it is time to find another job.</p>

2013-12-19T11:27:18-05:00 2013-12-19T11:27:18-05:00 CSM Mike Maynard 24415

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I want to thank everyone for their responses. Really great feedback and some interesting comments/tangents.<div><br></div><div>- There is a great difference between being a SFC and a PSG, just like there is a great difference between being a SSG and a Squad Leader. There are different expectations for those in leadership positions - right or wrong, that's just the way it is. Not that it's zero tolerance or that there are unbelievably high expectations that only a few can meet. But, if you are in a leadership position, the expectation is that you currently are meeting the basic Army standards. I used APFT/ABCP as examples only, it should apply to everything expected of the leader.</div><div><br></div><div>- If you as a leader are flagged for failing an APFT, could you honestly grade on of your Soldiers on their APFT? Would that be hypocritical? If you don't have the moral authority to assess your Soldiers, how can you be a leader? Same as failing the ABCP. Could you honestly tape someone and let them know they don't meet the standard, knowing that you don't meet it either? Not meeting a standard and being in a leadership position places you in a precarious position that is best avoided.</div><div><br></div><div>- Bottom-line, I believe leaders must be meeting Army standards and if they aren't they cannot be effective and it creates a climate that you can be a leader in the Army and not meet standards. And honestly, that's what we're trying to protect here - the belief that it's ok not to meet standards.</div><div><br></div><div>- Now that I've expressed my opinion on whether or not they should be moved out of position, the question then becomes how do you do this? Is your goal to make an example because of their flagrant lack of regard for standards or is this a person that is great at everything else and you want them to be effective later on. I think this is where the "compassion/empathy" and regard for their specific situation comes in. Just as some said - are their medical issues? was this uncharacteristic? etc? If so, then, you need to be able to "remove" them in such a way that enables them to retain dignity and return to a leadership position once they meet standards.</div><div><br></div><div>- I don't think failing a standard should keep you from being a leader permanently, but it should keep you from being in a leadership position when you currently don't meet standards.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

2013-12-20T07:05:57-05:00 2013-12-20T07:05:57-05:00 SSG Christopher Peckham 24499

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>CSM, I think it should be like that. They do that with officers if you fail to maintain a standard of knowledge and PT they get you away from leading soldiers to leading a desk. I feel that it should be the same for NCOs<br>

2013-12-20T09:47:36-05:00 2013-12-20T09:47:36-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 24505

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>He must be removed from that position ASAP. If he is not and his Soldiers find out that he has failed one or both some may lose respect for him as a Senior NCOS, and the others may think it is ok for them to do the same. Also if his Soldiers see this standard being broken and nothing coming of it then they may push the limits on other standers. <div><br></div><div>I know if I was a squad leader in a platoon where the PLT SGT fails one of thoughts I would have a hard time taking orders from him because I expect my Soldiers to meet these standers and the PLT SGT is supposed to set the slandered for his Platoon. </div>

2013-12-20T10:01:58-05:00 2013-12-20T10:01:58-05:00 SFC Michael Hasbun 24533

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>Out of curiosity, for everyone who is saying fire him, lets change the scenario. Lets say it's not the APFT or body fat. This Platoon Sergeant failed to qualify on his assigned weapon instead. Does this change your answer? Why or why not?</p><p> </p><p> <br /><br />How about a different standard? Lets say he has not completed his required EO training, or SHARP. or any of the other MANDATORY requirements we all must complete... Is he still fired?<br /><br /> Why or why not? </p><p> </p><p>Are only some of the standards important? Which ones?</p>

2013-12-20T11:12:27-05:00 2013-12-20T11:12:27-05:00 CPT Private RallyPoint Member 24552

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I would remove him as well. Let him do remedial training and get back to standard and earn the leadership position back. As a junior soldier, it looks awful to see any form of leadership fail the standards and is completely discouraging to not only myself, but other soldiers as well. How can someone ask us to maintain the standard if they cannot themselves? <div>I could understand if they just came off an injury or something and have been on a serious profile for a while, but if it's bad enough to were they cannot pass, they should go back to the doctor and get back on a profile. That situation happened to me when I destroyed my knee. If it was somebody in charge of me failing, I'd expect them to either fix the situation immediately, or relieve themselves honestly. There are soldiers who are missing limbs and severely injured who could still manage to pass PT standards. No excuse.</div>

2013-12-20T11:40:18-05:00 2013-12-20T11:40:18-05:00 CPT Private RallyPoint Member 24674

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I would remove him but I would be very discreet about it. I would do it for this reason. While I was deployed in Iraq, as a Squad Leader, we had another squad leader that was out of shape and had back issues. Because he was a good guy they let me be a squad leader. Being a good guy has nothing to do with job performance, or I haven't seen it when I rate an NCO on an NCOER. While on a patrol his back went out and all of sudden the mission had to stop and we had to recover him and take him back. He should have never been out there. If we were in contact and his back went out he would have created a bad situation. If you can't perform your duties or are physically able to pass an APFT you need to do the right thing and step aside. 

2013-12-20T14:46:41-05:00 2013-12-20T14:46:41-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 24785

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>CSM...the way I see it is that no one is perfect and if it happens that he/she failed a standard they should be given a second chance to make it so that they pass.  Unless they keep on failing then that's a different story. I'd more than happy to take  their spot. I hate being a civilian and part time soldier.

2013-12-20T17:38:57-05:00 2013-12-20T17:38:57-05:00 CSM Private RallyPoint Member 26319

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>A leader should meet the standards period, but I see people talking about a double standard, there is a regulation 600–9 in place for a reason, if a Soldier at any rank or position (excluding Command, CSM or 1SG) fails to meet the standard  they should be placed on the program and given six months to get right. We cannot pick and choose what part of the regs we will obey by.  Nowhere does it state that you cannot hold a platoon sergeant position while on the program, it's a tough right to swallow but if the PSG fails to conform, trust me, s/he will be shown the door.<div><br></div><div>Here is an excerpt from AR 600-9 (3-6):<br><div><br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <div class="page"><br /> <div class="layoutArea"><br /> <div class="column"><br /> <p>(1) Have a DA Form 268 placed on their record to suspend favorable personnel actions. Some of the ramifications<br />of the flagging action include:<br /></p><br /> <p>(a) Are nonpromotable (to the extent such nonpromotion is permitted by law).<br><br />(b) Will not be assigned to command, command sergeant major, or first sergeant positions. </p><br /> </div><br /> </div><br /> </div><br /></div><br /></div>

2013-12-23T12:02:22-05:00 2013-12-23T12:02:22-05:00 CW5 Private RallyPoint Member 26320

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>CSM Maynard,<br><br>I say remove him immediately, "BUT" allow him to stand in front of platoon and tell his Soldiers why he is being removed or better yet allow him to have the option of stepping aside voluntarily. I believe most Soldiers will respect his honesty and would support the situation a little better. Soldiers prefer for leaders to own up to their problem(s), then fix it (if humanely possible) and then return at some point; this can also be associated with resiliency. I see a win in this for everyone.<br>

2013-12-23T12:06:32-05:00 2013-12-23T12:06:32-05:00 1SG Michael Blount 26321

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Counseling for the first offense, duly noted on NCOER and if no improvement IAW regulation -- gone. Period. No ifs ands or buts.  If that happens to me, I expect the same treatment.  We do not have the luxury of a double standard.

2013-12-23T12:07:55-05:00 2013-12-23T12:07:55-05:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 26788

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Personally rank shouldn't be an issue in this situation. Standards are just that. If you had an E-4 team leader that failed the same test what would be your course of action. I can say from personal experience that the team leader would be removed from a leadership position. If you can't uphold the standards how can you expect the same from the soldiers you lead. The Army's pt and body fat standards are weak to say the least, if we can't meet these standards, maybe its time for a career change.

2013-12-24T11:22:45-05:00 2013-12-24T11:22:45-05:00 CW2 Private RallyPoint Member 27712

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>CSM,<div><br></div><div>I definitely feel that they should not be in the position. It is a simple Army standard. Unfortunately the regulation allows anyone below 1SG to remain in the position. Frankly, I think that anyone in ANY leadership position should not be allowed to be in that position. The Army is shrinking and there are a ton of eager and good Soldiers waiting to take their place.</div>

2013-12-26T22:29:14-05:00 2013-12-26T22:29:14-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 28146

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Most people would want to crucify this PSG, but how often do you see leaders fail at the range? What's the corse of action on an any soldiers unqualified at the range? Send them through until they qualify. I've seen so many officers who couldn't qualify on an m16 to save their life so they get moved to the s3 shop and qualify with a pistol. In any case, they should be given remedial training and tested a second time. If the army punished every soldier to the full extent when they fail a task, this would be a very small army.

2013-12-27T20:33:17-05:00 2013-12-27T20:33:17-05:00 SGT Chris Hill 44001

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Definitely wouldn't leave the PSG in that position, they are a Soldiers leadership and we as leaders are obligated to uphold the standards, especially basic soldiering standards such as APFT and 600-9. I've seen instances where a PSG fails one or the other and nothing happens, but yet when a section sergeant fails, the NCO is counseled, flagged and loses his/her position. Hell even a 1SG should be held to the same standard! No one is exempt from regulations, and if you wear the stripes or brass, you better be setting the standard! If we don't, that's what we call hypocrisy and all respect is lost towards that particular NCO/Officer

2014-01-25T11:55:58-05:00 2014-01-25T11:55:58-05:00 MSG Private RallyPoint Member 44013

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>For the sake of being the devils advocate, what if this PSG fails a standard, but he has the highest overall Platoon Pt score in the BN, all his soldiers shoot expert and sharpshooter, the platoon has no serious incidents and DUIs since he's been a PSG and his subordinates believe he/she is a great leader should the CoC remove him even having a high success rate.

2014-01-25T12:37:28-05:00 2014-01-25T12:37:28-05:00 SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member 44029

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I would not fire him I would suspend him until he passes his APFT. The reason being is your Soldiers look up to and you are placed in that position to lead and teach your Soldiers what the Army Standard is. If your Soldier can not see self motivation in the PSG then they are not going to have any. Even though I am not in that position I will tell you as a Soldier your PSG sets the example as well as the standard. 

2014-01-25T13:43:03-05:00 2014-01-25T13:43:03-05:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 44325

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>if a PSG fails his/her standards they should be given a chance to retake the failed section in order for them to prove themselves howev if they fail a second time then they should be replaced even if the platoon thinks the world of that PSG ad has proven themselves in the past for that PSG while I was in the serviceI actially ha 2 different PSG removed from their position1 for failig the PT Test twice and one fo failing to qualify on the rifle range and also failing to qualify on his crew served weapon twice on each weapon ithe M16 and the M2 50cal.

2014-01-26T01:04:24-05:00 2014-01-26T01:04:24-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 44443

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>No matter if the PSG was the best or worst u hv to remove them so not to create any doubt of picking and choosing to uphold standards. I recently hv had to initiate bars and flags on a couple of my superstars. Did I want to no but everyone is watching and u can't only punish the bad soldiers. As stated n one of the comments we know once we take the position the extra eyes that r put on us. With that being said you know what your signing up for. All those that are against remove think about the number of 1SG, CMDR or BC that we all know have failed at a standard and they were kept in place how did that effect you that is doing the right thing to enforce the standards to the lower enlisted. If you believe the lower enlisted news don't hear and find out all the wrongs that are swept under the rug your wrong. It all gets out trust me. Bottom line don't put yourself in that position if you have an ailment address it prior to pt test or even if you get injured during pt test stop and seek help it's better to not finish cause of injury vs. continuing and then using your hurt after the fact. 

2014-01-26T08:22:55-05:00 2014-01-26T08:22:55-05:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 44521

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>CSM I would remove the Platoon Sergeant from his position. The way I see it how can you ask anything of your soldiers that your are not able or willing to do yourself. As a leader it is that leaders responsibility to lead by example. The Platoon Sergeant's soldiers may respect him still even though he has failed to meet APFT or ABCP standards but soldiers often begin to think when they see this "why should I listen to him when he can't even pass an APFT?"

2014-01-26T11:24:45-05:00 2014-01-26T11:24:45-05:00 1SG Michael Blount 44674

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>This is not a popularity contest: either the  PSG passes the second APFT or HT/WT or not.  We can't have some people keeping their positions because their platoon or company has unofficially voted them the "Most likely to..." This  isn't middle or high school.  The high stakes we play for are real.  We must not have some  people meeting standards and keeping their jobs while others bust - ass and can't get promoted.  It's not  like the PSG didn't know the consequences of getting fat.  Get fit or get out.

2014-01-26T17:53:39-05:00 2014-01-26T17:53:39-05:00 SGT Timothy Byrd 44848

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I would counsel him or her &amp; allow them a chance to retake &amp; pass or be replaced.<br>

2014-01-26T21:12:26-05:00 2014-01-26T21:12:26-05:00 SGM Private RallyPoint Member 45077

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><p>At a minimum this NCO is going to be suspended.  The reason is simple, how can a leader hold others to the standard, if they themselves cannot achieve the standards.  I will give him a 4856 with a course of action laid out, up to and including his potential relief if he does not meet the standards in the timeline I have given him.  Even if he comes back and achieves the standards, his lapse will still be annotated on his NCOER.  </p><p>I fully agree that everyone has a lapse in discpline, but you must be willing to answer for those lapses.  </p>

2014-01-27T07:13:20-05:00 2014-01-27T07:13:20-05:00 CW2 Geoff Lachance 49763

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I'd have to put it as a case by case basis.  PSG's have earned their way!  They deserve, at the least an opportunity to make the correction.  Now, in light of the example to their subordinates, they would need to show some initiative!  I'd have to look at the total soldier before I could make any kind of decision that might jeopardize a career.<div><br></div>

2014-02-02T20:24:26-05:00 2014-02-02T20:24:26-05:00 SPC Brendan Kearns 50013

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I have always seen the Army standard as the line of demarcation, if you can meet it then there is no problem, being better at pt dose not make you a better leader, in fact it is used as an excuse to allow toxic leaders into positions of influence.

2014-02-03T06:03:42-05:00 2014-02-03T06:03:42-05:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 54136

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Personally, I say absolutely not. You can't hold your soldiers to a standard that you can't meet. After failing I say put the PSG on probation until they take their retest, which should be in the mandated time period. If they fail the retest, the next senior person takes that position. The NCO will remain in the platoon as squad leader.

2014-02-09T05:03:23-05:00 2014-02-09T05:03:23-05:00 GySgt Private RallyPoint Member 105570

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div><div style="text-align:justify;">Fire him!  The platoon sergeant is the driving force for the discipline, morale, and welfare of the team.  How can one maintain the discipline of his men if he cannot be disciplined himself by meeting the standards set?  This position is reserved for those who can set the example for their men to emulate!</div>

2014-04-18T19:16:12-04:00 2014-04-18T19:16:12-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 114551

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>CSM,<br /><br />Sorry for the late response.<br /><br />You know how NCOs get blammed when their Soldiers fail at the APFT? Does the 1SG get blammed when their PSGs are an APFT failure? Is it the 1SG job to ensure his PSGs can pass an APFT? Or is it you are a PSG or SFC you should be ready on your own type thing? <br />Sorry if the questions seems so basic but Ive never been a 1SG or in the position yet and i always wondered that.

2014-04-29T14:52:20-04:00 2014-04-29T14:52:20-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 114593

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>CSM Maynard,<br /><br />The 1SG counsels the PS. In it he sets the the plan to rectify the problem. 1SG allots a proper/fair amount of time to rectify the problem, monitors progress, provides motivation and guidance. When the time is up you follow through on the counseling and remove the PS if the standard has not been met. We need to hold leaders to the standard.<br /><br />Basically you hold the PS to the same standard as you would any other NCO, but you don't hang him out to dry. Every soldier may falter or fall at some point, we pick each other up and drive on with the goal of enabling success.

2014-04-29T15:36:46-04:00 2014-04-29T15:36:46-04:00 CMSgt James Nolan 123364

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>First, before simply sacking someone, you need to ensure that whatever action is taken is consistent with the current state of action that is taken for everyone else. And, realize that if you crucify someone on their first failure at anything, you are in essence setting the standard for the crucification of everyone else from that point forward.<br /><br />I obviously have no idea what the current Army standard is for a first time failure, I can tell you that in current AF, failures meet with progressive discipline that ultimately will end up with separation if performance does not come up to standards.<br /><br />There are so many reasons that a SM could move into a failure status that each case must be handled differently yet similarly in order to keep a positive appearance of Standards for the good of the Service. If the troops see leadership fail, and nothing happens....they get upset. If the troops see leadership undergo the same troubles that accompany troop failures, they will appreciate the integrity of the system. If there are medical reasons for failure, that process must be allowed to work. If it is simply laziness...that system also must be allowed to work.<br /><br />As a First Sergeant, I see all the sides of this issue...seems like all the time. Standards have to be maintained, but so do our troops.

2014-05-10T12:41:55-04:00 2014-05-10T12:41:55-04:00 SSG (ret) William Martin 123431

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>CSM Maynard, This question is very intriguing, and I will entertain it the best I can with my knowledge and experience I have gain thus far in my career. First I looked in, AR 600-8-2 Suspension of Favorable Personnel Action (Flags) and unless I missed it, I didn't see anything so removing a leader from a leadership position who does not meet the Army standard for the APFT or with weight/taping must be customary. So far, other responses have been very good. If it was up to me to remove the platoon sergeant from his leadership position I would remove the SM and assigned him or her to a non leadership position and tell them to start exercising and dieting. The other option is tell him or her they have a week to loose the weight. I was once over weight by two pounds, and I was given 4 hours to loose the weight so a week would be nice. I myself have been in the same position but it never went far as flagging or removing me from my position. Once when I busted weight and tape my platoon sergeant said she would put my subordinate in charge of me, and I would basically be the soldier and he'd be the NCO. Yes, she was serious. If a leader can not meet the simplest standards such as PT and weight or body fat I am sure I can find someone else who can.

2014-05-10T14:52:18-04:00 2014-05-10T14:52:18-04:00 CW2 Private RallyPoint Member 123604

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I don't really think that that it will be up to any of us in the end. To remove a soldier from there leadership position one must complete a "relief for cause" NCOER. This requires a General Officers approval which I think you will be hard pressed to get a General Officer to sign off on all "relief for causes" for a PT failure that comes a crossed his desk. But hey if your willing then maybe he is to.

2014-05-10T19:52:00-04:00 2014-05-10T19:52:00-04:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 131097

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>The PLT SGT has to go stand in the back of the formation and another NCO will take charge. If I'm the 1SG and I have properly counseled you, you in turn have properly counseled your NCOs, and your Soldiers know what the platoon pt goal is- there is no room for failure. We have a pt test coming up soon and I am 99% certain the personnel that do not pass this record test will be flagged the same day so... if your not going to flag the PLT SGT you need to take some type of action.

2014-05-20T17:17:05-04:00 2014-05-20T17:17:05-04:00 CW2 Private RallyPoint Member 374307

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Everybody has a bad day or bad break at one point or another. I had an instance when I was a young NCO and I didn't pass an APFT when the time came and the response that I got was "if you cant pass you can’t lead". And I agree with this to a point, If you "can't" pass. I believe you should treat this just like any other soldier. If someone fails an APFT, you give them a little time and have them retake. If they continue to have an issue then yes further actions may need to be taken to include removing them from a leadership role. <br />If someone has a bad day and rolls an ankle on the run and fails the APFT for this reason and they limp back to the company to be told that they are being removed from a leadership role, this is going to give the soldiers the wrong impression, this is going to tell them the company has no faith in them as a leader. This could cause a problem in the future even when they do pass the APFT the following week and then is reinstated as a leader. The soldiers lose a certain amount of respect in someone that has had adverse actions taken against them no matter the reason for the actions. You also have to take into consideration that the individual might be going through rough times at home and there might be some other underlying issue that needs to be addressed. <br /><br />And yes a couple weeks later when the opportunity was given I passed and was re-instated into my leader role. <br /><br />If there is a continued issue with the passing of APFT or Body Composition program then maybe separation from the military could be the next COA.

2014-12-17T14:03:23-05:00 2014-12-17T14:03:23-05:00 CW2 Private RallyPoint Member 374311

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Unless there is a medical problem or something going on, he should be removed. He is suppose to be one of the ones enforcing the standards on his or her soldiers. To leave in place would be a bad example to the other senior NCO's and the Soldiers. A soldier especially a NCO should be able to pass the APFT at all times. (while not on temp profile)

2014-12-17T14:07:25-05:00 2014-12-17T14:07:25-05:00 MAJ Private RallyPoint Member 374343

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>As a former battalion executive officer, I would encourage the CSM to remove this individual from a leadership position. <br /><br />However, having said that, I know that, based on previous experience, we do not reinforce that in the commissioned officer corps.<br /><br />Because that double standard exists, it is a difficult decision for a CSM to justify.

2014-12-17T14:24:04-05:00 2014-12-17T14:24:04-05:00 SSG Private RallyPoint Member 376604

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Why is this even a question to be entertained? Remember that one time when your high speed squad leader took your job because your fat? ....... Yea that's today!!!!! Hahaha

2014-12-18T19:58:56-05:00 2014-12-18T19:58:56-05:00 SGT Kristin Wiley 376623

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I would remove him. Senior leaders need to be the ones setting the example and should have the individual responsbility to maintain the standards. What are we telling our troops if it's okay for the platoon sergeant to fail his APFT, but not one of his troops? If the PSG is not responsbile enough to be maintaining physical fitness standards, he is not responsbile enough to be in this position.

2014-12-18T20:18:43-05:00 2014-12-18T20:18:43-05:00 1SG Michael Blount 377103

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>If this has gotten to the CSM, it's already elevated too far. One reason God invented 1SGs is to channel the CSMs time along more important channels.

2014-12-19T05:36:14-05:00 2014-12-19T05:36:14-05:00 SSG DeWayne Corbitt 377507

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I am going to have to side on the example of up holding the standard. The thing you have to look at is would they let you take the CSM if you did not pass the APFT or 600-9. The answer would be no. So to me it needs to be a re ability transfer so he can get his self straight and bounce back and over come this. Just because you take a step back and regroup does not me you are not a good leader to me it shows the Joes that you are human.

2014-12-19T11:44:47-05:00 2014-12-19T11:44:47-05:00 CPT Private RallyPoint Member 377739

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Since when do we let those that can't meet the standard lead? If you leave someone who cannot meet the standard in a leadership position that is the starting point of hypocrisy and a deteriorating command climate. Indiscipline is bred at this juncture. Three months down the road when problems manifest, you can look back to poor leadership as the cause.<br /><br />Do not do that to your Soldiers. Show them that you enforce the standards and remove those that are incapable of leading. Our Army is a profession, we need to steward positive leadership and remove the rest. There is no place for washed up, half-assed wannabes.

2014-12-19T14:49:58-05:00 2014-12-19T14:49:58-05:00 SGM Private RallyPoint Member 412371

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>This answer is simple. Remove him, regardless of the situation. If he returns to form, then you can reinstate him in another company. It's all about setting the standard and as the CSM, it is about setting the example.

2015-01-11T09:28:07-05:00 2015-01-11T09:28:07-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 658694

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>No question, they have to be removed. There is no difference between them or any other Soldier who cannot maintain the standard. Sorry there is a HUGE difference we are leaders and as leaders we are supposed to lead. WE are the STANDARD BEARERS and that responsibility is HUGE. Sometimes people lose sight of that and assume that they are safe because of their position or rank.<br />Standards are standards, AR 600-9 doesn't have a special Fat kid section for PSG and above, a fat kid is a fat kid. The Army doesn't have a Special Section in FM 3-21.20 for PSG only different age groups. Failures are failures. Pass or fail<br />Live the standard, BE THE STANDARD. I am an old guy, I am not impressive I have a P2 profile so I can't do Pushups, but I get as close to 100 an each event I can do as possible. I feel that it is the only way I can motivate my guys to do the same. Not saying that I expect 300's from them I just want them to pass. I am just saying that I believe that I have to BE the example to SET the example at least in all the ways I can. If I can't well, then I guess I understand getting fired, and I refuse to get fired for something like that.

2015-05-11T07:03:49-04:00 2015-05-11T07:03:49-04:00 SFC Dennis Yancy 806945

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Passes in 3 months or he goes. Lead or follow is his choice

2015-07-10T23:38:27-04:00 2015-07-10T23:38:27-04:00 SPC Trista Bradley 2008264

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I actually know of a situation that this is happening in. There is a PSG who has failed APFT &amp; HT/WT 3 times and is still in the position due to leadership not having a &quot;regualtion&quot; to relieve him of duty. He is still counseling his Soldiers for them failing their APFT (which I feel is not right). Does anyone know of any regulation for this?

2016-10-24T13:16:56-04:00 2016-10-24T13:16:56-04:00 SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member 2179555

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>CSM, in my personal opinion yes they should be removed. This leaders need to have military presence and meet the APFT, HT and WT standards like everyone else. Do we keep the lower enlisted if they fail? Do we flag them immediately and enroll them in the appropriate programs in accordance AR 600-9? These regulations are made for everyone and there should be no exceptions made.

2016-12-21T22:30:36-05:00 2016-12-21T22:30:36-05:00 SSgt Jim Gilmore 2179641

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I speak from a position of not knowing the Army Regs. That said my opinion is: Determine the reason of failure first. Can it be readily resolved? If the answer is yes, it can be resolved, leave him/her in position pending review (can he/she pass if retested?) If they pass, leave things alone but make a notation in the training file. If no, remove from position for cause and notate accordingly. Why intentionally screw an otherwise good soldier&#39;s career. <br /><br />When I was on AD 40 years ago we had an E-6 who could not pass the run. He was in great shape too. He also exceeded weight standards at 6&#39;1&quot; and 260lbs. The man was solid as a rock with out any fat. His problem was he was shot after 200 meters. He had trouble making the mile and flunked it. His review went up the flag pole and a final review left him in place based on his other physical attributes. None of us are built identical. We all have out own pluses and minuses. Unfortunately, the fitness and composition program is NOT a one size fits all situation. I doubt the O-6 and above in most cases could pass.

2016-12-21T22:59:46-05:00 2016-12-21T22:59:46-05:00 SPC Rj Wasser 3661790

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Here&#39;s the thing CSM Maynard, you know the NCO better than we do. Is he just a fat body, and is he legitimately out of shape? Or was it a one off fail of the PT test? Hell, I&#39;ve failed a PT test before (lesson to the new soldiers out there, running the two mile for time is not a good way to deal with a hangover.... quit drinking after that to be honest). If we&#39;re talking the BMI... well let&#39;s look at the BMI. That&#39;s a loaded scale and we all know it. Technically I fail bmi right now due to my measurements alone and I&#39;m in the best shape of my life with around 8 percent body fat.<br /><br />The devil is in the details. We don&#39;t have enough to make an honest call. My suggestion: unless the NC is an absolute dirt bag, give him another shot. Orison Swett Mardon said it best, &quot;Most people fail, not through lack of education, or agreeable personal qualities, but from lack of dogged determination, from lack of dauntless will.&quot; Give him a chance to redeem himself; a test of will if you will.

2018-05-26T06:34:32-04:00 2018-05-26T06:34:32-04:00 MSG Danny Mathers 3661827

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>A CSM or SGM is not a leadership position, it is a advisory position. The Platoon Sergeant removal is the duty his chain of command. You can recommend to the 1SG to take actions and advise your commander. The CSM does not rate a PSG or endorses his fitness report nor can he remove him unless he works for the CSM in an academy. Howewvewr, the CSM has a lot of authority through his commander; he has his/her ear. The commanders issues orders, the CSM recommends actions.

2018-05-26T07:12:29-04:00 2018-05-26T07:12:29-04:00 SGM Bill Frazer 3665252

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>You give him all the rope the Regs say- then if you are going to chapter him, then remove for the good of the unit. Do you really want an NCO on his way out to poison the PLT?

2018-05-27T18:04:08-04:00 2018-05-27T18:04:08-04:00 SGT Joseph Gunderson 4273086

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Is this the first occurence and, if so, does the SM have the desire and ability to get back within standards?

2019-01-09T18:07:35-05:00 2019-01-09T18:07:35-05:00 1SG Private RallyPoint Member 4273159

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>For those who answer remove immediately, do you give them a relief for cause NCOER?<br />You should, right? You are relieving them.<br />Removing them will require an NCOER be prepared for them, and unless it is a RFC, that NCO will have to complete an NCOER for all of the NCOs that PSG/SL rates.<br />Of course the NCOER will have to reflect the failed APFT or ABCP, essentially guaranteeing an end to any future promotions. Yes, if there are some extra promotions they may be protected, but for most it will mean they are finished with any forward progress. So, to be clear, the consequences are going to be significant.<br />Not saying you shouldn&#39;t remove them, just wanting to clarify if the removal is going to have the desired impact.

2019-01-09T18:41:41-05:00 2019-01-09T18:41:41-05:00 SGT Donald Croswhite 4274044

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Hell no, how is he to be trusted to uphold standards when he can&#39;t lead from the front?

2019-01-10T03:19:54-05:00 2019-01-10T03:19:54-05:00 SFC Private RallyPoint Member 4321252

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>I can train soldiers to achieve heights I never will if I have an understanding of how it works even if I cant do it myself. As a weapon instructor I out performed many of my cadre because they could teach me better than they had the ability to achieve. I think on principle you counsel give time to correct then you remove if not fixed. many soldiers cannot perform a task however they can direct subordinates maximize there potential that&#39;s what great coaches do. Is that not a leaders job?

2019-01-27T14:22:12-05:00 2019-01-27T14:22:12-05:00 SGT Private RallyPoint Member 6518133

<div class="images-v2-count-0"></div>Coming from the junior NCO&#39;s looking up, I&#39;d say it depends on the circumstances. If this NCO is very obviously physically unfit, has been for some time, regularly skips out on unit PT or doesn&#39;t try and fails a PT test, then yes, move them, if they&#39;re not attempting to uphold the standard there&#39;s likely other things that are going on.<br /><br />However, if this PSG fails the PT test due to being ill, just coming off of some assignment that didn&#39;t afford them the opportunity to exercise, or is in the middle of a weight loss/strength gain program and actively trying to improve themselves, then I&#39;d say counsel them and retest in no later than 90 days. I feel like if a junior NCO or Soldier had seen an NCO who had just returned from post-deployment leave and was given a short notice PT test and failed, to me at least it would seem like some sort of targeting or like your career was always in danger. We&#39;re all Soldiers, but we&#39;re still people, leaders and Soldiers need to work together when there&#39;s extenuating circumstances. The PSG shouldn&#39;t be absolved of responsibility for his failure, but should be afforded another opportunity in an appropriate timeframe to make things right unless they show a genuine lack of care for the standard.

2020-11-20T22:45:05-05:00 2020-11-20T22:45:05-05:00 2013-12-19T08:18:27-05:00