Posted on Nov 26, 2014
What Role Does Religion Play Within Our Military?
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With member of the military identifying with 98 different religions, it is evident our Armed Forces is extremely diverse. Unfortunately, religious differences sometimes cause feelings of animosity between service members. Are you less likely to trust another service member who does not identify with the same religion as you?
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A person's religion holds no bearing on their worth as a person, co-worker, fellow Service Member, etc. Yes, it identifies you as a part of a group with similar beliefs, but a person is still an individual making their own decisions and interacting with others. As long as a person lives up to the values of their Branch of Service and their own ideals, I have no problem with them.
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SGT Steve Vincent
SGM Erik Marquez I agree with the spirit of what you are getting at, but I believ there I have something to add to this debate; a person's beliefs should be a plus when it comes to job performance, as long as they are doing something worthwhile. I am a Christian, and I believe that this made me a much more effective Soldier, as I had less doubt when it came time to execute my job, due to the fact that I was at perfect peace with my conscience about the fact that my job description was taking other peoples' lives. This all goes into the Just War Theory. Same thing goes for being a patriot. If you are not a patriot, you have exactly zero business serving in our Armed Forces. It is a direct conflict of interest at the basest level possible. How can you not like your country, but serve in it's military? Political affiliations go hand in hand with being a patriot. If you love this country, politics don't come into it. I could go on for hours about how the government is out of control, ad nauseum, but suffice to say, if the government is being operated in accordance with the Constitution, and the laws of our country, then it is your duty as a member of the Armed Forces, to follow the orders you are given, as long as they are LAWFUL orders. Anything else is grounds for action under the UCMJ. In my life, people who actually have true faith in God, who love their country, are some of the best damn people you could ever hope to surround yourself with, if you are a moral and ethical leader. If you are not, you will wind up with your ass in a sling. I know a thing or 2 about unlawful orders, as I experienced a few in my career.
As far as people not being able to detach themselves from the hive mentality, tis is less an indictment on them as individuals, and more an indictment of we as a nation, and what we have been filling our young peoples' minds with for the last two generations. I hear people from my fathers generation speaking about how stupid people are today, how lazy and worthless, how they have no work ethic and no attention span, and now I just say thank you. Thank you, because your generation is the one that raised this generation. You were their teachers, mentors, and authority figures. You were their governing body. Things do not happen in a vacuum. Everything in life is a direct result of something else that has taken place. Think of it like this; you own a dog. You beat and abuse that dog, don't give him proper care and love, leave him locked in a cage for days at a time, and never let him out to run free. Then, on one of those rare occasions when you do let him out, he runs out and bites someone. This is not the dogs fault, as it is just acting in a way that is a direct result of its; upbringing. Like that dog, we have an entire generation +, that has grown up with no moral compass. They have been taught crap in school, they have had their brain trained to be automated, and they have been raised by the television and the internet, instead of by their family. They have no sense of self, no sense of right and wrong, and no sense of belonging to something bigger and better than themselves. It is all about the self, the individual. And they have no critical thinking skills. Low information children lead to low information voters, which leads to Obama and the rise of "Democracy" in our country. Contrary to what all of the talking heads on TV, and the politicians, and the bureaucrats and professors and talking heads say on the television, we do not live in a democracy. We don't even live in a democratic republic. We live in a Constitutional Republic. If they would start actually teaching the youth of today the right things, it would be amazing how fast this country would right itself, but this is not the case.
The most important thing a man can possess, is the ability to think for himself, to display reason and the ability to use discernment. We need to stop marching to the sound of the drum, and actually think where that drum is leading us. I for one refuse to march in lockstep off the precipice and into the abyss, which is where this country is headed. It is striking, the correlation between the assault on the Judeo-Christian values, and the descent into moral bankruptcy. Belief and faith is a good thing, and if more people exercised that blob between their ears, instead of mindlessly accepting everything they hear, this country would be better off. We need to get back to studying things, and making our own decisions, and the rest will follow.
Sorry if this has been a bit meandering and off-topic at points, but I'm getting a bit of a migraine, and it makes my mind start to drift off...
As far as people not being able to detach themselves from the hive mentality, tis is less an indictment on them as individuals, and more an indictment of we as a nation, and what we have been filling our young peoples' minds with for the last two generations. I hear people from my fathers generation speaking about how stupid people are today, how lazy and worthless, how they have no work ethic and no attention span, and now I just say thank you. Thank you, because your generation is the one that raised this generation. You were their teachers, mentors, and authority figures. You were their governing body. Things do not happen in a vacuum. Everything in life is a direct result of something else that has taken place. Think of it like this; you own a dog. You beat and abuse that dog, don't give him proper care and love, leave him locked in a cage for days at a time, and never let him out to run free. Then, on one of those rare occasions when you do let him out, he runs out and bites someone. This is not the dogs fault, as it is just acting in a way that is a direct result of its; upbringing. Like that dog, we have an entire generation +, that has grown up with no moral compass. They have been taught crap in school, they have had their brain trained to be automated, and they have been raised by the television and the internet, instead of by their family. They have no sense of self, no sense of right and wrong, and no sense of belonging to something bigger and better than themselves. It is all about the self, the individual. And they have no critical thinking skills. Low information children lead to low information voters, which leads to Obama and the rise of "Democracy" in our country. Contrary to what all of the talking heads on TV, and the politicians, and the bureaucrats and professors and talking heads say on the television, we do not live in a democracy. We don't even live in a democratic republic. We live in a Constitutional Republic. If they would start actually teaching the youth of today the right things, it would be amazing how fast this country would right itself, but this is not the case.
The most important thing a man can possess, is the ability to think for himself, to display reason and the ability to use discernment. We need to stop marching to the sound of the drum, and actually think where that drum is leading us. I for one refuse to march in lockstep off the precipice and into the abyss, which is where this country is headed. It is striking, the correlation between the assault on the Judeo-Christian values, and the descent into moral bankruptcy. Belief and faith is a good thing, and if more people exercised that blob between their ears, instead of mindlessly accepting everything they hear, this country would be better off. We need to get back to studying things, and making our own decisions, and the rest will follow.
Sorry if this has been a bit meandering and off-topic at points, but I'm getting a bit of a migraine, and it makes my mind start to drift off...
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SGM Erik Marquez
SGT Steve Vincent "a person's beliefs should be a plus when it comes to job performance"
That is my point as well.. as long as the beliefs are theirs...and not the groups im fine.. But many groups desire you to take on their beliefs,,,and even if you do not fully understand, feel, acknowledge them,, you are supposed to project them as if they are yours.......
That is my point as well.. as long as the beliefs are theirs...and not the groups im fine.. But many groups desire you to take on their beliefs,,,and even if you do not fully understand, feel, acknowledge them,, you are supposed to project them as if they are yours.......
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PV2 Abbott Shaull
STG Steve Vincent, I have known plenty of people who believe in God, who are Christian, and are business men, and their total lack of Morals and Ethics is appalling to say the least. So not all Christians out there have the same Moral and ethical compass as others.
You are right that too many people don't take the time to think for themselves and just follow. At the same time as you are saying this, think about the Military system. It is system that basically requires one to follow orders, not to question them to often, and when you are presented a situation where you should do so, you do so at great risk to your career and personal safety. There are plenty times when it been pointed out, where not following orders can get people killed, and other where people need to think. It is double edge sword you asking people. As a quote from a Drill Sergeant, "The best troops are those who are Mentally Disabled, because they don't ask no questions, they only do as they are told!" Which may work for infantry units, but then again if they are given so called illegal orders who suppose to make a stand to say the orders were illegal?
Why is it that when people talk about religions they talk about Judeo-Christian and they leave out Muslim. In fact, the majority of the Muslims who don't want to live under Shira law, live and hold a very similar believe system too. So it would be Judeo-Christian-Muslim values. If you want to claim on how they treat women, look how women were treated in the Bible, and how they had to fight for Rights here. We aren't so far removed from lot of the things we slam these various groups for doing. So as you claim people need to learn their history, and quit marching to the sound of the drum. I would advise you go research some our Judeo-Christian history little closer and see how the values have been revise over time. Do some research on the two flavors of Islam, and why their is such a divide between the two.
We do have Democracy at the local level more or less, in that we have direct say in what happens at that level of Government. Yes as you move up, until the Federal-level it would be more accurate call it Constitutional Republic, but if the Founding Fathers called it that back then, it would of never passed into law. It is all in a matter of perception, and yes, to many people aren't involved in the process anymore, which is a shame, because the government was set up, so everyone was given a chance to be heard. It not perfect system, but it is what we have, if you don't vote, or take action, then do you really have right to sit there and bitch, just saying.
You are right that too many people don't take the time to think for themselves and just follow. At the same time as you are saying this, think about the Military system. It is system that basically requires one to follow orders, not to question them to often, and when you are presented a situation where you should do so, you do so at great risk to your career and personal safety. There are plenty times when it been pointed out, where not following orders can get people killed, and other where people need to think. It is double edge sword you asking people. As a quote from a Drill Sergeant, "The best troops are those who are Mentally Disabled, because they don't ask no questions, they only do as they are told!" Which may work for infantry units, but then again if they are given so called illegal orders who suppose to make a stand to say the orders were illegal?
Why is it that when people talk about religions they talk about Judeo-Christian and they leave out Muslim. In fact, the majority of the Muslims who don't want to live under Shira law, live and hold a very similar believe system too. So it would be Judeo-Christian-Muslim values. If you want to claim on how they treat women, look how women were treated in the Bible, and how they had to fight for Rights here. We aren't so far removed from lot of the things we slam these various groups for doing. So as you claim people need to learn their history, and quit marching to the sound of the drum. I would advise you go research some our Judeo-Christian history little closer and see how the values have been revise over time. Do some research on the two flavors of Islam, and why their is such a divide between the two.
We do have Democracy at the local level more or less, in that we have direct say in what happens at that level of Government. Yes as you move up, until the Federal-level it would be more accurate call it Constitutional Republic, but if the Founding Fathers called it that back then, it would of never passed into law. It is all in a matter of perception, and yes, to many people aren't involved in the process anymore, which is a shame, because the government was set up, so everyone was given a chance to be heard. It not perfect system, but it is what we have, if you don't vote, or take action, then do you really have right to sit there and bitch, just saying.
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SSG Kevin McCulley
SGT Steve Vincent I think it was because they had it so hard with the depression and WWII that they overcompensated with their kids and made it too soft for them. This gave us the boomers and the useful idiots in the 60s. I, on the other hand, was raised by a three tour Vietnam vet father who wore a green beret and hard-on for killing communists like you wouldn't believe. I feel entirely out of place in society. A man who has fallen out of time.
Acquiring my own PTSD probably didn't help that.. lol Ahh family traditions.
Acquiring my own PTSD probably didn't help that.. lol Ahh family traditions.
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Sgt. Alt I suggest you read the federalist papers. We were far from secular. Massachusetts established a state religion shortly after ratification of the U.S. constitution. The first amendment, and therefore the establishment clause wasn't applicable to the states until after the 14th amendment was ratified during reconstruction. (The actual incorporation of the 1st amendment happened many many years after the 14th was ratified)
Also, you will find many many legal scholars that disagree with your living constitution view including several Supreme Court justices.
Unfortunately you are a product of talking points without learning history. I am not trying to offend but educate. Please take as so. Long story short -religion has a place in our military so long as no one is forced to attend any service and your faith doesn't interfere with your duty.
Also, you will find many many legal scholars that disagree with your living constitution view including several Supreme Court justices.
Unfortunately you are a product of talking points without learning history. I am not trying to offend but educate. Please take as so. Long story short -religion has a place in our military so long as no one is forced to attend any service and your faith doesn't interfere with your duty.
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SPC D W
SGT (Join to see): I already addressed stamp collecting. Those that don't collect stamps don't label themselves as "a-stamp-collectors."
Only those atheists that are too cowardly to actually stand for something try to insist that atheism isn't standing for something. or that atheism isn't claiming something.
All other atheists either make their stand by declaring absolutely that no deity exists, or have changed to be agnostic. Look at Richard Dawkins.
So yes, atheists can stand for anything they want: believing that no deity exists. And for those that actually stand for that, I do have respect for them. I don't agree with them, but I respect them.
Standing for not holding a belief is just a cowardly way of defining yourself opposite someone else, but not having to actually defend anything.
Otherwise, please, prove me wrong, SGT: if atheism is merely not holding a belief, then what are you standing by claiming the title atheist? What are you stating by making that claim? Are you declaring to all the world that you define yourself by not collecting stamps? Or what are you actually declaring that you are standing for by naming yourself atheist?
Please, prove me wrong.
Only those atheists that are too cowardly to actually stand for something try to insist that atheism isn't standing for something. or that atheism isn't claiming something.
All other atheists either make their stand by declaring absolutely that no deity exists, or have changed to be agnostic. Look at Richard Dawkins.
So yes, atheists can stand for anything they want: believing that no deity exists. And for those that actually stand for that, I do have respect for them. I don't agree with them, but I respect them.
Standing for not holding a belief is just a cowardly way of defining yourself opposite someone else, but not having to actually defend anything.
Otherwise, please, prove me wrong, SGT: if atheism is merely not holding a belief, then what are you standing by claiming the title atheist? What are you stating by making that claim? Are you declaring to all the world that you define yourself by not collecting stamps? Or what are you actually declaring that you are standing for by naming yourself atheist?
Please, prove me wrong.
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SFC Raymond Koeller
I am just like you and I am an atheist. I just believe in one less god than you. What do you mean "to actually stand for something?". Atheism isn't about standing for anything. It is simply a non-belief in ANY deity. You sure are a big man to call someone a coward though on the internet. Huge props!! The true cowards are those who will not look objectively at the evidence and change their minds.
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SSG (Join to see)
Coward? Word didn't leave my fingers... I checked. Uneducated as to American history, yes. And I stand by that, and putting libelous words in my mouth won't change that. The fact is that religion has been a closely held thing in our country since the founding, and while the government can't force you to practice, neither can you forbid people from practice because they wear a uniform or attend a school.
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SFC Raymond Koeller
The comment wasn't directed to you. It was directed at SPC D W. I thought I was responding to him.
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I don't need to know the exact statistics to see that differences in religion affect our military. I see the conflict on RallyPoint evey day. Freedom of Religion means just that. If you want freedom to practice your religion you live in the right country. If you want to serve your country by being in the armed forces, you have come to the right place. If you feel like you have to force your opinions, beliefs, and values on each other you may need to rethink the concept of "freedom."
Has religion played a role in driving wedges of dissention that truly affect readiness? I say no, but I also urge caution. This question can only be answered based on our own understanding of what religion truly means. But the way Uncle Mark understands his religion I will say don't be so quick to judge the actions of an individual based on what religion they claim to follow. When some deranged POP (piece of poop) kills and says it is because of their beliefs, that claim is made by a truly disturbed individual. Just because THEIR twisted mind uses THEIR understanding of religion to justify THEIR actions, it isn't the religion causing the actions. I'm no theologist, but I don't believe any one religion says to kill people who don't agree with each other.
What makes these "religious extremists" successful is their ability to twist religion to fit their needs and get followers to believe that their beliefs are under attack, and not their actions. It sickens me to see people attacking each others beliefs on RallyPoint. Some members go as far as to join conversations just to piss on their beliefs and then spew the most vile, hurtful comments back and forth; Officers, NCO's, and Enlisted alike. Respect each other's opinions and agree to disagree. Go convert elsewhere if you believe that you must save the world and force others to believe as you do. As I come down from my soap box, I say that I am a proud Christian who is respectful of everyones opinions and I will not engage anyone in discussion as to why I believe the things that I do. I do not speak for, or on behalf of RallyPoint. I come to this site to help, to offer support, and to build each other up. That is MY purpose. What is it that you gain, or hope to gain by tearing each other down?
Has religion played a role in driving wedges of dissention that truly affect readiness? I say no, but I also urge caution. This question can only be answered based on our own understanding of what religion truly means. But the way Uncle Mark understands his religion I will say don't be so quick to judge the actions of an individual based on what religion they claim to follow. When some deranged POP (piece of poop) kills and says it is because of their beliefs, that claim is made by a truly disturbed individual. Just because THEIR twisted mind uses THEIR understanding of religion to justify THEIR actions, it isn't the religion causing the actions. I'm no theologist, but I don't believe any one religion says to kill people who don't agree with each other.
What makes these "religious extremists" successful is their ability to twist religion to fit their needs and get followers to believe that their beliefs are under attack, and not their actions. It sickens me to see people attacking each others beliefs on RallyPoint. Some members go as far as to join conversations just to piss on their beliefs and then spew the most vile, hurtful comments back and forth; Officers, NCO's, and Enlisted alike. Respect each other's opinions and agree to disagree. Go convert elsewhere if you believe that you must save the world and force others to believe as you do. As I come down from my soap box, I say that I am a proud Christian who is respectful of everyones opinions and I will not engage anyone in discussion as to why I believe the things that I do. I do not speak for, or on behalf of RallyPoint. I come to this site to help, to offer support, and to build each other up. That is MY purpose. What is it that you gain, or hope to gain by tearing each other down?
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Capt Gregory Prickett
Son, I shared the law with you. 10 U.S.C. 934. Otherwise known as Art. 134, UCMJ. Anyone who is subject to the UCMJ can be charged.
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SPC (Join to see)
Firstly, the law is freedom of religion not freedom from religion. If a scene uses any amount of space on a government property, or words on a wall, any and all other religious memorabilia from any other religion must be afforded the same amount of equal space. I am growing tired of the infighting about religion and government. If people read the laws for what they say and stop "interpreting" what the laws mean, they will get the meaning. Just because someone sets up a Nativity display does not mean they are forcing their religion on anyone, they are celebrating an event with those that identify with it. I personally do not define myself by any specific religion but if people in this country stop believing in everything including each other, we are going to continue on a downhill trend faster than we already are. What is to become of us? When is it going to stop?
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Capt Gregory Prickett
You're exactly right. If a county allows for a nativity scene that covers 100 sq. ft. of lawn, then every other religion must be afforded the same amount of space. So the neopagans can set up a winter solstice scene, the satanists can do whatever scene that they want, Hindus can set up a shrine to Shiva or Vishnu, etc.
You also have to be aware of the Establishment Clause, and the government cannot support one religion, like Christianity, without offering equal support to other religions.
You also have to be aware of the Establishment Clause, and the government cannot support one religion, like Christianity, without offering equal support to other religions.
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