Posted on Jul 13, 2015
When did the NCO Corps lose their power? Or, did they ever lose it at all?
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Starting this I would like to address the first assumption that I am sure many have noticed. I am an officer. Yes, but I was an Enlisted prior to obtaining my commission for about 10 years. I have seen this from both sides the fence.
Now I constantly hear many claim that "they" need to give the power back to the NCO. I am not saying that this is an invalid argument by any means but for life of me I can't figure out when the Army, or your branch of service, took this power and what they did with it. Did the Officers take it? I am not sure that I have seen any officers really come down to performing NCO duties, minus the occasional misguided officer. And yes it is usually a LT.
What power was lost? When did this happen? I was an SSG at the start of 2010 when left the service for a break. But when I was an NCO I never felt like I didn't have full control of my squad at any time. The PL gave me a task and I did it. I never let him tell my squad what to do or how I should run it. There were a few times where I will admit I was lazy and wasn't meeting his expectations and he let me know that. I was failing on training enough on a squad level. So he came in and told me to train more. I didn't buck the system when he was telling me what I should be doing. He was right. Looking back on it I should have been taking better advantage of that training time.
Since then five years have lapsed. I do all that I can to enable my squad leaders. Sure some take advantage of the situations and some don't. They don't always react the same and sometimes I have to assume the role of my old PL and address the situation. Still yet I don't believe he was, nor am I, taking any power away from the NCO Corps. To take the power away you would be putting an NCO into a position to where they are no longer have any influence. Maybe officers are failing to involve them in the planning process but most of the time that isn't addressed when one uses such a general statement.
When did this occur? Maybe we are doing it without realizing it over time. But I think that the NCO Corps is the strongest it has ever been. If so, how is this affecting it?
Now I constantly hear many claim that "they" need to give the power back to the NCO. I am not saying that this is an invalid argument by any means but for life of me I can't figure out when the Army, or your branch of service, took this power and what they did with it. Did the Officers take it? I am not sure that I have seen any officers really come down to performing NCO duties, minus the occasional misguided officer. And yes it is usually a LT.
What power was lost? When did this happen? I was an SSG at the start of 2010 when left the service for a break. But when I was an NCO I never felt like I didn't have full control of my squad at any time. The PL gave me a task and I did it. I never let him tell my squad what to do or how I should run it. There were a few times where I will admit I was lazy and wasn't meeting his expectations and he let me know that. I was failing on training enough on a squad level. So he came in and told me to train more. I didn't buck the system when he was telling me what I should be doing. He was right. Looking back on it I should have been taking better advantage of that training time.
Since then five years have lapsed. I do all that I can to enable my squad leaders. Sure some take advantage of the situations and some don't. They don't always react the same and sometimes I have to assume the role of my old PL and address the situation. Still yet I don't believe he was, nor am I, taking any power away from the NCO Corps. To take the power away you would be putting an NCO into a position to where they are no longer have any influence. Maybe officers are failing to involve them in the planning process but most of the time that isn't addressed when one uses such a general statement.
When did this occur? Maybe we are doing it without realizing it over time. But I think that the NCO Corps is the strongest it has ever been. If so, how is this affecting it?
Leadership
Influence
NCOs
Officers
Authority
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 29
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Sir
You made a statement; They make the statement , they need to give the power back ,
If an officer ever has to give me my power back to lead troops
I'm wrong , if an NCO can't lead get out of the way , if an officer is doing an NCO's job "why"
If I feel an officer is getting in my lane I as tactfully as possible remind them of the "Forest and the Trees"
You made a statement; They make the statement , they need to give the power back ,
If an officer ever has to give me my power back to lead troops
I'm wrong , if an NCO can't lead get out of the way , if an officer is doing an NCO's job "why"
If I feel an officer is getting in my lane I as tactfully as possible remind them of the "Forest and the Trees"
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CPT (Join to see)
I agree with you 100%. I had one incident in which this was evident. Calling out an officer for acting like an NCO is one thing. But when you are left to yourself and you fail to produce anything then maybe it isn't the officer. When I was that SSG that didn't feel like training and my PL had to tell me to go train it was my fault. Luckily down the road I realized that I was in the wrong there. I put him in that position. But I couldn't have said it better when you wrote that "if an officer has to give me my power back I'm wrong."
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Power unexercised is power lost. Through my O career I was somewhat of a minority as I'd push full responsibility and accountability down to my NCOs. Most responded well and appreciated it. The quickest way to strip power is for the officer not to support the NCO. I figured out a long time ago that people closer to the work with better eyes on it almost invariably would do a better job than me. That gave me the time to do a better job for my NCOs by being a better crap filter from above. The problem nowadays is the notion of power, its proper use, by whom, for whom isn't a skill that's purposely nurtured. I remembered I had my Master Chief with me on a advance trip "way out there". So when we showed up, the most important things to be coordinated were at Masterr's level so I sent him off to do what he does best. So what did the O-5 do? I swept out our hooch and laid in some food so we could then figure out a strategy on our next steps on a full stomach. The next day was my turn to shoot some well targeted arrows.
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CPT (Join to see)
I like your first statement. I just think the perception of power is lost on some by their lack of influence in some situations. There is a lack of their influence that is led by their inactivity. By default the activity of others, could be an officer, would be perceived as the one that is influencing the group. But as it would be, how could one complain when no attempt was made to initially influence the group at all.
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The new feel good Military does not like the Idea of smoking Joe or NJP when he screws up. They want paper work so they can just show some one the door when the pile gets to big. A good smoke session and extra duty that includes hard dirty work A.K.A the shit details get a point across to the offender and those who witness it. NCO's can not do this to the extent that they could in the 80's and 90's. Some one might get butt hurt or offended.
I once had 3 bone heads empty a huge mud puddle with buckets. They hated every minute of it and did not get to bed until 23:00. They were a sad sack after I was finished with them. Every once else knew that the chain of command was behind me and not to screw up like the 3 idiots emptying the puddle.
In the 82nd you knew some one pissed of the CSM if they were mowing grass on saturday with a full Ruck and KPOT. By the time they got all the way to the brigade parade field they were smoked and pissed off, but no one else wanted to be that guy.
When troops fear what an NCO can do if they mess up then the NCO has real power. When the good troops fall in with the NCO's and help enforce the standard you have a strong unit. The E-4 mafia will keep the minor crap under control so that the bird on the sham shield does not get its feathers ruffled.
I once had 3 bone heads empty a huge mud puddle with buckets. They hated every minute of it and did not get to bed until 23:00. They were a sad sack after I was finished with them. Every once else knew that the chain of command was behind me and not to screw up like the 3 idiots emptying the puddle.
In the 82nd you knew some one pissed of the CSM if they were mowing grass on saturday with a full Ruck and KPOT. By the time they got all the way to the brigade parade field they were smoked and pissed off, but no one else wanted to be that guy.
When troops fear what an NCO can do if they mess up then the NCO has real power. When the good troops fall in with the NCO's and help enforce the standard you have a strong unit. The E-4 mafia will keep the minor crap under control so that the bird on the sham shield does not get its feathers ruffled.
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Where I think it went wrong was smoking a Joe for something minor or just for fun. Last year I would go visit my Company CP and everynight one of my team leaders was out back smoking his joes. But the joes knew why they were there and why they failed. If you don't do that it won't be understood and they may just see it as hazing.
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SSG John Erny
CPT (Join to see) - Like I said sir, let the E-4 Mafia deal with the minor things. They have ways! "PV2 FUBAR The rules broken you should not have. Cramped our style; drawn the attention of the NCO you have! Now pay for it you will" ~ SPC Yoda
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