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Two part question -
If a junior enlisted Soldier is convicted of a DUI or the like, should this Soldier be discharged?
If a Leader is convicted of a DUI or the like, should this Soldiers be chaptered? Can a Leader with a DUI effectively lead their section/units?
If a junior enlisted Soldier is convicted of a DUI or the like, should this Soldier be discharged?
If a Leader is convicted of a DUI or the like, should this Soldiers be chaptered? Can a Leader with a DUI effectively lead their section/units?
Military Career
Readiness
UCMJ
DUI
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 131
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Wow this is a tough one SGM. I personally feel that Drinking & Driving is a terrible thing for anyone to do regardless of any label (rank, position, etc). However, I recently dealt with this in my platoon and I don't think it as cut and dry as kick them out or keep them. Even excellent Soldiers make mistakes. In my opinion how they learn from their mistake and grow from their mistake is key and this is not something that can be determined if they are kicked out right away.
Here are some thoughts:
1. Why does the Army spend so much money on substance abuse programs if they are not interested in helping Soldiers with dependency issues?
2. If someone is convicted of DWI in the civilian world does it cause them to be fired? Not generally, unless they are a professional driver.
3. There should be repercussions because doing nothing only enables them. There are lots of possible punishments that could be applied for a first time offense and they certainly should be removed if they fail to meet counseled requirements or continue to drink and drive. Reduction, moving to a different position (not a different unit as there will likely be no continuity in treatment and oversight of progress), letter of reprimand, restrictions, loss of pay, suspension, bar to reenlistment, extra duty and many more.
4. Texting and driving has proven to be incredibly dangerous and is outlawed in most states and on bases. People still do it daily and they are of sound mind and judgement (unlike someone who is drunk). They knowingly endanger others, should texting and driving be treated as seriously? (This is only an example for the sake of playing devil's advocate)
5. If there is an incident caused by the drinking and driving event they should be prosecuted in civilian court and as applicable under UCMJ and the resulting conviction should effect the Soldier's status.
6. Wouldn't a Soldier who overcame a DWI conviction and substance abuse issues be an asset to a unit toward helping other Soldiers who are dealing with similar problems because I guarantee that there will always be Soldiers with these issues.
With all that said now it is time for the RP cross exam.
Here are some thoughts:
1. Why does the Army spend so much money on substance abuse programs if they are not interested in helping Soldiers with dependency issues?
2. If someone is convicted of DWI in the civilian world does it cause them to be fired? Not generally, unless they are a professional driver.
3. There should be repercussions because doing nothing only enables them. There are lots of possible punishments that could be applied for a first time offense and they certainly should be removed if they fail to meet counseled requirements or continue to drink and drive. Reduction, moving to a different position (not a different unit as there will likely be no continuity in treatment and oversight of progress), letter of reprimand, restrictions, loss of pay, suspension, bar to reenlistment, extra duty and many more.
4. Texting and driving has proven to be incredibly dangerous and is outlawed in most states and on bases. People still do it daily and they are of sound mind and judgement (unlike someone who is drunk). They knowingly endanger others, should texting and driving be treated as seriously? (This is only an example for the sake of playing devil's advocate)
5. If there is an incident caused by the drinking and driving event they should be prosecuted in civilian court and as applicable under UCMJ and the resulting conviction should effect the Soldier's status.
6. Wouldn't a Soldier who overcame a DWI conviction and substance abuse issues be an asset to a unit toward helping other Soldiers who are dealing with similar problems because I guarantee that there will always be Soldiers with these issues.
With all that said now it is time for the RP cross exam.
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MSG (Join to see)
very well said i was convicted dwi, i turned in my retirement packet, because as a leader you need to uphold the army values, yes i made a mistake but, i personnelly felt useless to the unit for my misjudgement, how can you hold your juniors to the hihest level when you sunk to yours
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SPC (Join to see)
Thank you I need to hear this perspective from a 1SG just PCSed to a new unit and going thru a divorce my wife tried to commit suicide and leadership wouldn't let me see her, the next day I got a DUI. I'm not using this as an excuse for what I did but I feel like how I've been treated by the unit and everything that is going on in my life is a huge influence on the poor decisions I regret making that day, I just pray my command can see this. To see that I am hurting inside, I'm not happy, I'm not comfortable, I dont trust anyone, and I need a break... I accept what I did and I'm willing to take the punishment! I just cant lose my job
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SPC Sean Weaver
I am sorry to say it is just as "cut and dry" as their choice to drink and drive was. In this day and time with uber and other drive services there is no reason why anyone should be driving after drinking. This is not a new problem but for some reason everyone is trying to treat drinking and driving like it is something new.
It might be my personal experience with loosing a loved one to a drunk driver, but I still believe that there is no good reason why this is still happening.
As for a leader they need to lead by example. If they are setting an example of drinking and driving to their subordinates this is never a good thing and they need to go to finish the example. If you do this you are gone your rank will not protect you from your stupidity. That is the message that needs to be driven home.
It might be my personal experience with loosing a loved one to a drunk driver, but I still believe that there is no good reason why this is still happening.
As for a leader they need to lead by example. If they are setting an example of drinking and driving to their subordinates this is never a good thing and they need to go to finish the example. If you do this you are gone your rank will not protect you from your stupidity. That is the message that needs to be driven home.
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SGM Matthew Quick I believe in one standard for all, if you drink/drive you should be discharged out the military for all ranks. There is no need for ignorance, when the statistics show devastating ramifications for drinking/driving deaths.
MAJ Ken Landgren SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" TSgt Hunter Logan CPT (Join to see) LTC Stephen F. SSG Warren Swan PO2 Ed C. SGM David W. Carr LOM, DMSM MP SGT SSgt (Join to see) CPT L S CW5 (Join to see) CW5 Charlie Poulton SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas SGT (Join to see) SGM Mikel Dawson CSM Charles Hayden Sgt Kelli Mays SPC Margaret Higgins TSgt John Temblador, PI, CIPA
MAJ Ken Landgren SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" TSgt Hunter Logan CPT (Join to see) LTC Stephen F. SSG Warren Swan PO2 Ed C. SGM David W. Carr LOM, DMSM MP SGT SSgt (Join to see) CPT L S CW5 (Join to see) CW5 Charlie Poulton SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas SGT (Join to see) SGM Mikel Dawson CSM Charles Hayden Sgt Kelli Mays SPC Margaret Higgins TSgt John Temblador, PI, CIPA
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SPC Keelan Southerland
SSG Christopher Nicholas - Returning home and having a drinking problem is a symptom of a bigger problem. I have often said the Army's Resiliency Program is the real problem. Soldiers are taught how to kill, but not the why. When they are taught the why, beyond the obvious of protecting your buddy. If you were to look at the older posts on the Army Resiliency Program you will see what I am talking about.
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MSgt (Join to see)
I don't know about it being an automatic killer but how can you expect someone to lead that can't follow the rules. I know that there is a lot of "if you get a DUI as a civilian does that mean you get fired?" but it depends on your job too. If you have a job that requires you to drive and you lose your license because of DUI odds are your job is gone too. Same thing with he military. We are in a job that requires us to follow rules and if you can't follow them it can get people killed. Our military has so many programs out there to help people avoid getting a DUI I can't think of very many acceptable excuses for getting one.
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I'm sick of seeing Sgts and below busted down to private and SNCOs and Officers moved to another billet and allowed to retire. In todays military where they only want to retain the best this should absolutely be a show stopper. Much like the zero tolerance policy towards drugs, we should have a zero tolerance policy towards DUIs. They are completely preventable and show a lack of concern for all life.
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1LT William Clardy
CSM Eric Olsen, I didn't waste a lot of time arguing with him. He has his opinions and I still have mine -- one of which is a deep antagonism to "zero tolerance", and other is an extreme disdain for such overly broad slanders as "They...show a lack of concern for all life". The latter is doubly offensive when the person uttering indulges in an equally risky practice, but thinks he does not show an equal lack of concern for all life because his behavior isn't against the law (yet).
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CSM Eric Olsen
Sir, I'm not a zero tolerance supporter for most things, but I do agree with enforcing lawful orders. No matter how crazy, they're still policy. Specifically for DUIs, there are too many opportunities to prevent them-ranging from not drinking, to having a plan, to using the many free volunteer rides like the service offered here on Fort Carson. Even alcoholics can self-enrolled in an anonymous and confidential rehab service (CATEP).
I was just referring to your argument; it's futile just like arguing about global warming-whoops!
I was just referring to your argument; it's futile just like arguing about global warming-whoops!
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