Posted on Sep 9, 2016
In light of the recent Marine death at Paris Island, is hazing a right of passage or just plain wrong?
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What's your opinion? What's your experience?
Hazing
Military Career
Leadership
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 43
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There was plenty of "hazing" that went on back in the day. Parris Island might have perfected the art. In basic training you are trying to turn an 18 year old, undisciplined, under educated, individualist into a basically trained Marine. If you think you can do that by playing nice and not raising your voice, getting a little physical, scaring the hell out of them etc you are kidding yourself and will do the next generation of warriors a disservice.
I have a theory that one of the reasons we are seeing such heightened levels of PTSD these days is due to the training regimens being so lax/light etc. these days. We don't want to stress anyone out, over burden their systems etc. The old saying the more you sweat in peace the less you bleed in war applies to mental toughness as well.
You need to prepare people for combat and for the rigors that accompany it. You can never completely simulate combat in training but your goal should always be to prepare people as much as possible for the eventuality. Doing anything less is a leadership failure that may cost people their lives.
The guy at Parris Island killed himself, I believe by jumping out of a window or off a stairwell. You never want it to end that way but I suspect he was simply mentally unable to handle the stress of training. He likely went through the same training generations of Marines have gone through (likely less).
We had a guy in my platoon at Parris Island that tried to kill himself (by drinking detergent). He was unsuccessful and picked up the nickname of Mr Bubble. After that episode we were given unofficial periods of instruction on how to kill ourselves correctly. Jumping off the stairwell or out a window (on the third level) was one of the ways to do it properly.
I have a theory that one of the reasons we are seeing such heightened levels of PTSD these days is due to the training regimens being so lax/light etc. these days. We don't want to stress anyone out, over burden their systems etc. The old saying the more you sweat in peace the less you bleed in war applies to mental toughness as well.
You need to prepare people for combat and for the rigors that accompany it. You can never completely simulate combat in training but your goal should always be to prepare people as much as possible for the eventuality. Doing anything less is a leadership failure that may cost people their lives.
The guy at Parris Island killed himself, I believe by jumping out of a window or off a stairwell. You never want it to end that way but I suspect he was simply mentally unable to handle the stress of training. He likely went through the same training generations of Marines have gone through (likely less).
We had a guy in my platoon at Parris Island that tried to kill himself (by drinking detergent). He was unsuccessful and picked up the nickname of Mr Bubble. After that episode we were given unofficial periods of instruction on how to kill ourselves correctly. Jumping off the stairwell or out a window (on the third level) was one of the ways to do it properly.
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Cpl Justin Goolsby
Well said. Got to love those periods of instructions. But you are absolutely right. Boot camp is all about conditioning the mind, body, and soul. We might hate every moment we're there, but we can appreciate that they are breaking us down to build us back up because we suffered through the same games.
Sure it sucks that he died. He took the easy way out. But there is no justification for changing the training of generations of seasoned war fighters because one individual cracked under pressure.
Sure it sucks that he died. He took the easy way out. But there is no justification for changing the training of generations of seasoned war fighters because one individual cracked under pressure.
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Cpl Jeff N.
CSM Thomas McGarry First it is very presumptuous for you to assume the drill instructors were venting their "inborn prejudices". My experience and those I served with (1981-85) believed the drill instructors felt that we were all equally worthless as recruits. I had both white and black drill instructors and my platoon was racially mixed as well. The description of the incident in the Marine Corps Times was very tame. Here it is:
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On March 18, four days after Siddiqui returned to training, he wrote a note to his drill instructor requesting medical attention for a sore throat. After breakfast, a drill instructor summoned the recruit to the front of the squad bay. Siddiqui was forced to run to one end of the squad bay and back several times before he fell crying to the floor while clutching his throat, the Marine official said.
When he appeared unresponsive, the drill instructor "verbally ordered" Siddiqui to get back to his feet before "forcefully slapping" him in the face, the official said. The Marine Corps' Recruit Training Order prohibits drill instructors from striking recruits.
After the slap, Siddiqui got to his feet and ran the length of his third-floor squad bay to the stairwell outside and vaulted over the railing. He was pronounced dead several hours later at the Medical University of South Carolina. According to the autopsy, Siddiqui suffered "blunt-force trauma to the head, neck and torso."
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That is something I saw happen almost daily (and much worse). We all know there are folks the are simply not cut out to be Marines. He appears to have gotten more than he bargained for and took his own life. The drill instructors sent him to see the shrinks and they cleared him and sent him back. Then he has a sore throat, gets throttled a little and falls down and cries. You tell me what you think is going on there...I think he wanted to leave and go home. When he realized that wasn't going to happen he panicked and did something stupid.
I have known a number of Marine Corps drill instructors. They are extremely harsh but fair. They treat everyone very similarly.
Now the witch hunt is on to ruin the careers of Marines that have given years of their life in service to cover possible political fall out. Standard bovine excrement you get from the careerists at the senior levels. Let Marines make Marines. We have been highly successful for 240 years without the light weights and arm chair quarterbacks trying to get too involved.
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On March 18, four days after Siddiqui returned to training, he wrote a note to his drill instructor requesting medical attention for a sore throat. After breakfast, a drill instructor summoned the recruit to the front of the squad bay. Siddiqui was forced to run to one end of the squad bay and back several times before he fell crying to the floor while clutching his throat, the Marine official said.
When he appeared unresponsive, the drill instructor "verbally ordered" Siddiqui to get back to his feet before "forcefully slapping" him in the face, the official said. The Marine Corps' Recruit Training Order prohibits drill instructors from striking recruits.
After the slap, Siddiqui got to his feet and ran the length of his third-floor squad bay to the stairwell outside and vaulted over the railing. He was pronounced dead several hours later at the Medical University of South Carolina. According to the autopsy, Siddiqui suffered "blunt-force trauma to the head, neck and torso."
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That is something I saw happen almost daily (and much worse). We all know there are folks the are simply not cut out to be Marines. He appears to have gotten more than he bargained for and took his own life. The drill instructors sent him to see the shrinks and they cleared him and sent him back. Then he has a sore throat, gets throttled a little and falls down and cries. You tell me what you think is going on there...I think he wanted to leave and go home. When he realized that wasn't going to happen he panicked and did something stupid.
I have known a number of Marine Corps drill instructors. They are extremely harsh but fair. They treat everyone very similarly.
Now the witch hunt is on to ruin the careers of Marines that have given years of their life in service to cover possible political fall out. Standard bovine excrement you get from the careerists at the senior levels. Let Marines make Marines. We have been highly successful for 240 years without the light weights and arm chair quarterbacks trying to get too involved.
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CSM Thomas McGarry
I also know many DIs in the Army and yes a certain amount of hazing harassment is expected but it sounds to me like these guys went over the top. I went through Basic and Infantry AIT in 1978 as an E-3 (PFC) not something you want to do given a choice. I probably received more harassment because of my rank. Not sure why you included this recruits autopsy report as that has nothing to do with the discussion!
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One man's ribbing is another man's hazing. We have all seen examples of what the true definition of hazing is and the devastating outcomes. That is wrong all the way around. In my experience coming up through the ranks, I have been in very close Platoons and led a close knit Troop. For the enlisted, no Soldier just walks into a unit and is automatically part of the team. The PFCs/SPCs will test the newbie to see if they will accept him as part of the team. Combat Arms are like pack animals. There is an obvious line that is not crossed, but for most the acceptance outweighs the ribbing received..
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Suspended Profile
1SG Patrick Burke Great response 1SG. I was directed to read a book about hazing for professional development and I thought it was going to be against it. To my surprise it was about an airborne Soldier who was assigned to a unit that just got back from deployment. The platoon he was assigned to treated him as the new guy no one wanted. They made him knock on every door before he could enter a hallway or a room asking permission to come in. He had to ask the highest ranking person to leave the room and usually do some type of task to go in and out. Everyone called him names, made him do tasks that were pointless and demeaning, smoked the life out of him and made him feel out of place. Then there came a day that when he knocked to come in, everything stopped. Long story short he became part of the group, and he was a better Soldier because of it. He actually earned his position in the platoon, respected, and much more physically fit because of it. To him, his "Automatic" promotions were earned, not given. The problem with Soldiers now is they don't appreciate pining on SPC because it isn't earned, and it is no longer a rank but commonly refereed to as a pay grade instead.
COL Lee Flemming Sir to answer your question, is you still have esprit de corps events, but training, supervision, risk, and limitations be put in place. It's that promotion ceremony that one 1SG crushes a Soldiers chest with a wooden hammer that stops the Army from pining rank. In other words, one person shits their pants, and everyone wears diapers.
COL Lee Flemming Sir to answer your question, is you still have esprit de corps events, but training, supervision, risk, and limitations be put in place. It's that promotion ceremony that one 1SG crushes a Soldiers chest with a wooden hammer that stops the Army from pining rank. In other words, one person shits their pants, and everyone wears diapers.
1SG Patrick Burke
SSG Jordan Gaudard - Your last point nails it. The events that got out of hand should be dealt with severely. I would never allow any Soldier to be injured or humiliated. Funny you mention SPC, it reminded me of a SPC I received that had a degree and came from basic. My PFCs wore him out until they felt he had earned their respect. I had a good E-4 Mafia in my Troop that policed up all the E-1 - E -3 and they were all close..
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SSG (Join to see)
These are great points, there can be assimilation without the danger. Maybe focus more on unit or working together. Team building exercises or organizational days.
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SSG (Join to see)
SSG Jordan Gaudard - I agree with what you said brother. Focus on working as a team and the stupid little task they made the new guy do eventually made him part of the group.
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The sensationalist nature of your picture is misleading in this case, sir..
"Because he didn't follow proper procedure, the recruit was forced to run back and forth in his barracks, the report said.
After several runs, the recruit began to cry and fell to the floor clutching his throat, apparently unresponsive, the report said. He was ordered to get up and was slapped in the face, it said. After he was slapped, the recruit ran out a door and vaulted over a railing on the third floor of the barracks, the report said."
Sorry Sir but the knee-jerk reaction of destroying any semblance of realistic (and/or Corrective) training is exactly what the Services do NOT need. Given the scenario above which was in the original story, there was no hazing in my view. The guy did something wrong and was basically told to do laps. FFS, that shit happens in every High School football field across America. The guy wasn't hazed. He wasn't waterboarded. He was told to do laps in the barracks. In an act of douchebaggery he began crying and fell to the floor. (I'd fucking slap him too for being a little bitch.) The act of him running out the door to throw himself over a railing proves he wasn't physically harmed by his instructors.
Just like the gun debate. Every time someone shoots somebody, the Left demands more control against those that had nothing to do with the shooting. In this case, those that will suffer are the future recruits that will rely on "stress cards" and Safe Spaces. We cannot and must not coddle our Troops. It's not fair to them.
The pussification of training is the ultimate goal for some people.
"Because he didn't follow proper procedure, the recruit was forced to run back and forth in his barracks, the report said.
After several runs, the recruit began to cry and fell to the floor clutching his throat, apparently unresponsive, the report said. He was ordered to get up and was slapped in the face, it said. After he was slapped, the recruit ran out a door and vaulted over a railing on the third floor of the barracks, the report said."
Sorry Sir but the knee-jerk reaction of destroying any semblance of realistic (and/or Corrective) training is exactly what the Services do NOT need. Given the scenario above which was in the original story, there was no hazing in my view. The guy did something wrong and was basically told to do laps. FFS, that shit happens in every High School football field across America. The guy wasn't hazed. He wasn't waterboarded. He was told to do laps in the barracks. In an act of douchebaggery he began crying and fell to the floor. (I'd fucking slap him too for being a little bitch.) The act of him running out the door to throw himself over a railing proves he wasn't physically harmed by his instructors.
Just like the gun debate. Every time someone shoots somebody, the Left demands more control against those that had nothing to do with the shooting. In this case, those that will suffer are the future recruits that will rely on "stress cards" and Safe Spaces. We cannot and must not coddle our Troops. It's not fair to them.
The pussification of training is the ultimate goal for some people.
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COL Lee Flemming
MSG Pat Colby - Thanks for the repost!! I figured we were cross-purposed. All the best!!!
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MSG Pat Colby
Follow-up visit: The Rumor Doctor's dissertation on stress cards
After The Rumor Doctor's last story on stress cards, questions emerged that compelled The Doctor to delve further into the matter.
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MSgt (Join to see)
COL Lee Flemming - I just wanted to point out that what is going on in the picture is what happens on your LAST day in an Aircraft Maintenance Unit, not your first.
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Cpl Justin Goolsby
Very well said. Sure it's a tragedy, but he took the easy way out. There are a million and one ways to get yourself processed out. It's ridiculous to think that we need to rethink our training methods when it's those training methods which churn out hardened war fighters.
As an older recruit, I had my fair share of extra attention and I wouldn't change any of it. Not one person believed I could be a Marine except my recruiter and my DIs. Everyone else wanted me to go to an "easier" branch.
But my DIs made sure I didn't give up even after my body had already quit. I may not have been the greatest Marine of all time, but in the end, I'm a Marine and I have my DIs and their training to thank for that.
As an older recruit, I had my fair share of extra attention and I wouldn't change any of it. Not one person believed I could be a Marine except my recruiter and my DIs. Everyone else wanted me to go to an "easier" branch.
But my DIs made sure I didn't give up even after my body had already quit. I may not have been the greatest Marine of all time, but in the end, I'm a Marine and I have my DIs and their training to thank for that.
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