Posted on Sep 18, 2014
Disagree or Agree; Counseled Soldier checking Disagree. When is it appropriate?
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Ok, here is the age old question that I am 99.9% sure I know the answer to but am looking to be proven wrong since IG has taken it upon themselves to teach an individual something completely opposite of what I've researched and seen with my own two eyes.
On a counseling form during the session closing, it clearly states "The leader summarizes the key points of the session and checks if the subordinate understands the plan of action. The subordinate agrees/disagrees and provides remarks if appropriate".
This by my powers of deduction tells me that I reiterate everything we talked about, and ask him if he understands his plan of action. I've searched through 6-22, and through a trove of other FM's just to make sure I didn't miss anything, literally over an hour and a half of scouring, to no avail. Apparently IG here has access to some hidden manual or my research skills are seriously lacking, because according to them if the Soldier doesn't agree with ANY part of the counseling such as they were or weren't being disrespectful then they in all their rights may disagree.
What I'm looking for here isn't the "Well this is what I've been taught" or "This is the way I've done it" but a cited reference. Nothing makes me want to lose my composure more than when a Soldier attempting to get themselves out of trouble after clearly violating regulations checks that lovely disagree box and writes in Kindergarten print how I'm full of it. I appreciate any responses.
On a counseling form during the session closing, it clearly states "The leader summarizes the key points of the session and checks if the subordinate understands the plan of action. The subordinate agrees/disagrees and provides remarks if appropriate".
This by my powers of deduction tells me that I reiterate everything we talked about, and ask him if he understands his plan of action. I've searched through 6-22, and through a trove of other FM's just to make sure I didn't miss anything, literally over an hour and a half of scouring, to no avail. Apparently IG here has access to some hidden manual or my research skills are seriously lacking, because according to them if the Soldier doesn't agree with ANY part of the counseling such as they were or weren't being disrespectful then they in all their rights may disagree.
What I'm looking for here isn't the "Well this is what I've been taught" or "This is the way I've done it" but a cited reference. Nothing makes me want to lose my composure more than when a Soldier attempting to get themselves out of trouble after clearly violating regulations checks that lovely disagree box and writes in Kindergarten print how I'm full of it. I appreciate any responses.
Counseling
Leadership
NCOs
Army
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 13
1SG (Join to see), the IG is correct. If a soldier disagrees with what was stated, it is his right to tell 'his side of the story'. As CW5 (Join to see) pointed out, this doesn't invalidate the counseling and the soldier can disagree all day long ... it doesn't really amount to much.
However, it does lay out additional actions you may want to take to reinforce the reasons you gave the (negative) counseling statement. For instance, if PFC Snuffy disagrees with the statement you just gave him for being disrespectful, maybe there were other individuals around. If so, a quick memo from (or referencing those) individuals will quickly put that to bed.
If the soldier disagrees with the statement, then invite them to prepare the written rebuttal along with evidence showing why they disagree. If they don't do anything, then take the advice from CSM(ret) Gerecht and write in the following:
- Soldier disagreed with the counseling and refused the opportunity to prepare a written statement.
- Soldier was informed that his disagreement will not prevent the execution of the plan of action and the information discussed during this counseling session.
Is there some reason you expect the Army and your leadership to take the soldier's word over yours? Absent of any counter-indications, the Army will always tend to defer to the story told by the leader than the story told by the subordinate.
I've had to play with the "won't sign the statement" and the "disagrees with statement" a few times over the years. I wholeheartedly encourage the soldier to present any facts and such to back up their version of the events. Who knows, maybe I was wrong in my interpretation. More likely, they are just whining and looking for a way out. A check on the disagrees followed by the above two statements usually makes it pretty clear to others what is going on.
However, it does lay out additional actions you may want to take to reinforce the reasons you gave the (negative) counseling statement. For instance, if PFC Snuffy disagrees with the statement you just gave him for being disrespectful, maybe there were other individuals around. If so, a quick memo from (or referencing those) individuals will quickly put that to bed.
If the soldier disagrees with the statement, then invite them to prepare the written rebuttal along with evidence showing why they disagree. If they don't do anything, then take the advice from CSM(ret) Gerecht and write in the following:
- Soldier disagreed with the counseling and refused the opportunity to prepare a written statement.
- Soldier was informed that his disagreement will not prevent the execution of the plan of action and the information discussed during this counseling session.
Is there some reason you expect the Army and your leadership to take the soldier's word over yours? Absent of any counter-indications, the Army will always tend to defer to the story told by the leader than the story told by the subordinate.
I've had to play with the "won't sign the statement" and the "disagrees with statement" a few times over the years. I wholeheartedly encourage the soldier to present any facts and such to back up their version of the events. Who knows, maybe I was wrong in my interpretation. More likely, they are just whining and looking for a way out. A check on the disagrees followed by the above two statements usually makes it pretty clear to others what is going on.
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LTC (Join to see)
I always believed the disagree block was completely separate from the need to sign. I was once counseled as a junior enlisted soldier in a training environment for unauthorized used of my POV. I disagreed, wrote my rebuttal (loaned my car to a soldier with driving privileges). Since the counseling was based on the car being parked in a different place and not on anyone observing me driving it, disagreement was correct.
The counseling statement still was in my local file, but so was my rebuttal. This is more important in the Article 15 context, but counseling statements are where it all starts.
The counseling statement still was in my local file, but so was my rebuttal. This is more important in the Article 15 context, but counseling statements are where it all starts.
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A soldier may always disagree and provide comments, I frequently do so myself and in fact encourage my subordinates to do so. How can I expect my junior leaders to be assertive and do the right thing if they won't stick up for themselves?
Thier agreement or disagreement with the counseling and/or POA is really just to complete the record, and that is how I use that section as the counseled and counselor. If you refer back to FM 22-101 Appendix D p.97 you will see at the bottom of the form it says, "Any comments the counseled soldiers desires to include in writing upon conclusion of the counseling session." It makes no mention of whether the soldiers agree or disagrees. In FM 22-100 from 1999 if you go to Appendix C you can note that the last example counseling is a disagree from the counseled soldier and refers you back into the appendix but makes no guidelines on what is and is not appropriate in that block.
In sum the fact that a soldier disagrees with a counseling or the plan of action really doesn't matter. 4856's and counseling memos record facts.
I hope that helps
Thier agreement or disagreement with the counseling and/or POA is really just to complete the record, and that is how I use that section as the counseled and counselor. If you refer back to FM 22-101 Appendix D p.97 you will see at the bottom of the form it says, "Any comments the counseled soldiers desires to include in writing upon conclusion of the counseling session." It makes no mention of whether the soldiers agree or disagrees. In FM 22-100 from 1999 if you go to Appendix C you can note that the last example counseling is a disagree from the counseled soldier and refers you back into the appendix but makes no guidelines on what is and is not appropriate in that block.
In sum the fact that a soldier disagrees with a counseling or the plan of action really doesn't matter. 4856's and counseling memos record facts.
I hope that helps
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1SG (Join to see), I don't have a reference to cite to you, but I believe that "disagree" checkbox does not invalidate the counseling. The Soldier can disagree all day long ... he/she may still very well be "in trouble."
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