Posted on May 1, 2017
SGT Suraj Dave
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I'm about to graduate with my BS in Public Health this year. During my time in the Army, I observed my officers duties (Layouts, Writing Memo's/Power Points, guest starring on patrol, etc..) seem like they can be done without a college degree. (Excluding professionals). What part of officer training requires a degree? I believe we could send NCO's to OCS and they would do just fine. Do you?
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Responses: 19
LTC Jason Mackay
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Edited 7 y ago
I think you got a narrow view of what being an officer is all about. So what is that formula to Leonidas like company grade leadership? Was there a correlation between degrees and specific branches? I believe the degree requirement for commissioning is not tied directly to a success/failure of platoon leaders. The services need officers. Officers are needed to lead the services from the tactical to operational to strategic levels. The military skills and decision making are grown in house. The degree is not a certification in that regard, it is a box check to get into a commissioning program. A bachelors degree, codified by law, became the universally accepted standard. It was selected for many reasons. I believe among them are: you can stick to something for four plus years; you can apply intellectual rigor to problems; you have the capability to learn a foreign body of knowledge and be conversant in it; the service would acquire someone with your skill set to be repurposed for needs of the service later on. I was branched Ordnance (maintenance) with my Civil Engineering degree that the Army paid for (75% anyway) with the intent of branching me Combat Engineer. Couple truths. The majority of engineering at company grade, isn't. It is mobility, counter mobility, survivability...not designing things. In those days, CSS got the left overs from combat arms. My semesters of Steel Design, Intro to Design, project management, and Mechanics of Materials made me capable of understanding very technical welding and machining issues my Allied Trades shop was dealing with when I was a platoon leader and a shop officer. Growing up as the son of a mechanic helped me understand automotive-armament technical issues as a platoon leader and shop officer. Much later my civil engineering background helped me understand and prioritize public works projects and tangle with the EPA as a Garrison Commander. Nothing prepared me to get scuffed up by my first Troop Commander, counsel my Platoon Sergeant, lead non-cadets for the first time, investigate my first FLIPL, deal with a couple shady NCOs, deal with a couple inflexible seniors, handle a few spouses from hell, deal with death, command a world wide organization etc. nothing would have. What made that all work, was the preparation I recieved from parents that held me to standards; teachers that cared about me; early leadership opportunities as an adolescent (scouting, JROTC, sports, etc); development in my commissioning source by officers and NCOs; development by all ranks as an Officer ( I learn from everyone- good and bad); hard work; and being myself, not trying to be something I am not. If you are not Audie Murphy (alThough he was not well liked either) , you should not try to be him. I am not a proponent for thou must be an NCO first mentality. I have seen many that are incredible officers. I have seen some not make the transition and try to be O3 squad leaders and alienate their NCOs. You have to have a jumping off point to allow lateral entry of junior leaders you will then need to grow to fit the senior roles in the organization both in command and staff. So how do you filter out 20 somethings that you need to exploit in less than ten years, but are depending on fully harvesting the potential of in their early 40s before they retire? In a 20 year career, I spent 5 of those commanding organizations. The other 15 were staff jobs, making the Army keep rolling along. Real staff work, not ppt jackassery, coordinating, fixing problems, and breaking down barriers is what you have to apply intellectual rigor to, along with persistence, your influence, and experience to. So again, the degree is an entry requirement, not the sum total of expectation.
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LTC Lewis Cox
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History proves you are correct, just look at the large number of Officers that were given commissions during The Korean War! Any good NCO can perform the duties oh a company Grade officer. Degrees are required for the same reason as Medical Schools requiring "would be students" to have done very well on their SAT. They, as a group, have a much better chance of going all the way through medical school. The fact that a student has applied himself or herself to obtaining a degree shows they have the determination to make it through the mirad of officer schools! Believe me, The War College is not for Undergraduates!
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CPT Signal Officer
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Edited 7 y ago
Who forced you to earn your degree? Who stood over you and made you go to class, or study for exams? Probably no one. There are no major consequences if you don't do those things-you just won't earn your degree. Its entirely up to the individual, and that was the value I derived from it. Earning a degree shows the military that you have enough maturity, self-discipline, and motivation to follow through on a long-term plan without someone forcing you.
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SGT Suraj Dave
SGT Suraj Dave
7 y
Sir, I respectfully disagree. You believe non commissioned officers are not capable of being responsible? With all due respect, the day an officer enters the military, he/she is entitled to respect and entitled to lead. Non Commissioned officers must earn the respect with their rank, and earn the right to lead. All of us began at the bottom, our service began as privates.

There is only one difference between 23 year old SGT Dave in 2013 and 26 year old college senior Suraj Dave. That's the ability to write a lab report. I'm sure weather I went to OCS as a 23 year old Sergeant, or in this December as a Penn State graduate, my Memo's and Power Point presentations would be the same.

Again, no disrespect sir, just sharing my opinion. Thank you for your service.
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LTC Lewis Cox
LTC Lewis Cox
7 y
Absolutely! Right on point! They must stay professional or sometimes those hard earned stripes will go away! The old saying" "The NCOs are the backbone of the Army". Is just as true today as it was in George Washington's day. Any new LT, no mater how he was commissioned, better learn that his best sourse of learning and performing his job is to seek the advice of his NCO's!!!
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SFC Intelligence Analyst
SFC (Join to see)
7 y
Since when is an officer "entitled" to respect over a NCO? Recall the quote "Respect the rank, not the person." Everyone should respect the rank someone holds. You don't have to respect the person behind it whether enlisted or officer. But you do have to respect the rank they are wearing.

I started out as a SPC - I came in with a degree. We are all treated the same in basic regardless of rank. But not everyone starts out as a private. There were a lot of SPCs in my basic training platoon. Back in the day - being a SPC held a lot more weight than it does now from what I hear also. Just fyi.

We have to earn trust as leaders whether NCO or officer.

No it doesn't matter at what age you go to OCS. That didn't seem to be your question it was about the degree portion.

He didn't say NCOs aren't capable of being responsible. Some are, some aren't. Some officers are irresponsible too. He is saying the reason for the degree requirement and the value he took from getting a degree.
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SGT Suraj Dave
SGT Suraj Dave
7 y
SFC (Join to see) The point of the age comment, wasn't really about age itself. It was more to prove that having a degree now wouldn't make me any better off an OCS candidate than when I was in the Army SGT, seeing as OCS isn't an academic program.

As per the respect comment, Your butter bar is entitled to respect the day he shows up. This is why you salute him. This is also why you get UCMJ for disrespecting him. When you disrespect a private, nothing really happens. He is a private. The day the butter bar shows up, he is entitled to a leadership role and will rotate out of them every couple months. (Platoon leader now, S3 OIC in a couple months, Company XO by next year probably, etc...). This is compared to your enlisted soldier, who had to start out picking up trash, doing yard work, and training/deploying for a couple years to demonstrate competence before ever having the opportunity to lead.
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