Posted on Apr 20, 2019
Can I get an article 15 with a closed counseling?
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Can I recieve a article 15 for "ftr" to pt when the counseling I got was closed out and then I was "ftr again" .
I was on staff duty my unit doesnt believe I had staff duty and paid someone else to pull my shift so they are saying I was FTR after being FTR on accident one time before. The same day i recieved a counseling after the first FTR i had, my sgt closed the counseling and like it canceled the plan of action which was getting a article 15 if it happened again. They are saying it happened again and are pushing for a article 15 and simply dont believe I pulled duty... can they do that?
I was on staff duty my unit doesnt believe I had staff duty and paid someone else to pull my shift so they are saying I was FTR after being FTR on accident one time before. The same day i recieved a counseling after the first FTR i had, my sgt closed the counseling and like it canceled the plan of action which was getting a article 15 if it happened again. They are saying it happened again and are pushing for a article 15 and simply dont believe I pulled duty... can they do that?
Article 15
Counseling
Punishment
Help
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 16
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You've been listening to barracks lawyers too much. The problem with jailhouse lawyers is that an Article 15 isn't law, it's commanders discretion for punishment. You could receive NJP for looking at someone disrespectfully.
Unless you challenge your article 15 to court martial, the commander may issue whatever Article 15 your JAG is willing to bless off on.
Unless you challenge your article 15 to court martial, the commander may issue whatever Article 15 your JAG is willing to bless off on.
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" article 15s are all done by local policy and each JAG is different. I've seen some where commands have pursued NJP for people who failed to report because they were told not to report, then others where people were prosecuted for disrespect for rolling their eyes or having a sarcastic tone of voice.
UCMJ is written to give a wide latitude for commanders discretion in order for commanders to be able to use common sense in handing out punishment. Unfortunately, not all commanders have common sense. Another example of this is the admisitrative GOMOR. You can receive a reprimand for anything, even something could have done but can't be proved one way or another. In the legal world you would be innocent until proven guilty, but in the military you can receive a reprimand just for lacking the judgment to find yourself in any situation where you could be accused of something. Plus, because it's administrative, there's no proof required, and when you appeal, the appeal authority is the same person who wrote it. Almost every other negative action in the military allows you to appeal to one echelon higher as a way of providing checks and balances.
UCMJ is written to give a wide latitude for commanders discretion in order for commanders to be able to use common sense in handing out punishment. Unfortunately, not all commanders have common sense. Another example of this is the admisitrative GOMOR. You can receive a reprimand for anything, even something could have done but can't be proved one way or another. In the legal world you would be innocent until proven guilty, but in the military you can receive a reprimand just for lacking the judgment to find yourself in any situation where you could be accused of something. Plus, because it's administrative, there's no proof required, and when you appeal, the appeal authority is the same person who wrote it. Almost every other negative action in the military allows you to appeal to one echelon higher as a way of providing checks and balances.
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SSG Dave Johnston
Request in writing the DA-6 and the duty roster that shows you were in fact performing the proscribed duty "STAFF DUTY". That should resolve any questions regarding the FTR.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
SSG(P) James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" - The real "checks and balances" is the fact that you can request a court martial, which has an entirely different set of rules plus being at least a brigade level function. A company commander better have his ducks in a row or his decision making ability/career starts getting looked at by why too many Colonels and made be a one Star or two. The local policy helps keep the Company Commanders in line and the Battalion Commander from explaining what kind of moron is running Charlie Company.
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1. "Closing out" a counseling does not cancel the plan of action.
2. How were you "accidentally" FTR?
3. Who saw you report for staff duty, who saw you on staff duty, and who relieved you at the end of your staff duty shift? Those people can help your case.
It's been a long time since I have done staff duty, but it's probably still impossible to pull staff duty without anyone at all knowing you were there.
2. How were you "accidentally" FTR?
3. Who saw you report for staff duty, who saw you on staff duty, and who relieved you at the end of your staff duty shift? Those people can help your case.
It's been a long time since I have done staff duty, but it's probably still impossible to pull staff duty without anyone at all knowing you were there.
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SSG Dave Johnston
The DA-6 should settle the "Staff Duty" question. And I've questions for the NCO, Sqd. Ldr/Plt.Sgt., that lost track of one of his soldiers[DA-6/Duty Roster]??? FTR?; not if the SM was performing his assigned task(s).
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And barracks lawyers will spout off about all the "rights" you have. You don't have much. Administrative procedures means you can get dinged multiple times for the same thing; not double jeopardy as criminal law (higher up thought you were treated too light). You must answer questions as there is no Taking the Fifth. Essentially, these administrative procedures are the mechanism by which many business decisions are made. Is the SM worth keeping around? Is spending additional resources on the SM a good risk which will net a return on the investment? Does the SEL have the urge to find the recruiter and throttle him? It all goes into the pot.
The other thing is JAG can only make recommendations to the CoC. They don't have line authority. Good JAGs will go over the range of actions, pros/cons, etc. but the decision is up to the Skipper. Most important to remember, they work for the Skipper, not you, hence they are never really in your corner. My time in basically says the system tends to carry too many for too long. Same thing in the Civil Service arena. That's because saving folk is viewed as a better bean than being more effective but less liked (read that as the Brass doesn't like noise going up; any noise).
Bottom line, you want to atone, do whatever to keep the administrative stuff at the lowest level and not get near that line again. Worse thing to do is get the attention of the sleeping dragon.
The other thing is JAG can only make recommendations to the CoC. They don't have line authority. Good JAGs will go over the range of actions, pros/cons, etc. but the decision is up to the Skipper. Most important to remember, they work for the Skipper, not you, hence they are never really in your corner. My time in basically says the system tends to carry too many for too long. Same thing in the Civil Service arena. That's because saving folk is viewed as a better bean than being more effective but less liked (read that as the Brass doesn't like noise going up; any noise).
Bottom line, you want to atone, do whatever to keep the administrative stuff at the lowest level and not get near that line again. Worse thing to do is get the attention of the sleeping dragon.
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