Posted on Apr 5, 2015
How did EOF rules help or hurt your unit down range?
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Look, I get it – the popular response here is to say that all EOF (Escalation of Force) rules hurt units on the ground, no matter what. Some of us want to say, “Without any EOF rules we would have won both wars so easily!” To me, these comments belong in the same category as when people say, “Just nuke the whole Middle East and things will be perfect.” Neither statement is true at all (perhaps some will debate me on that).
Having said all this, I do acknowledge that there were times when EOF rules – and uncertainty in how to actually manage them as a leader – made it really tough to be effective on the ground in Iraq.
But there were also times when EOF rules HELPED my unit’s effectiveness, such as in dealing with local Iraqis who turned out to be innocent.
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Question for RP community -- I’d like to hear from RP members about times when EOF rules actually helped their unit. Or, if you choose, you can also reflect on times when EOF rules made things harder.
Look, I get it – the popular response here is to say that all EOF (Escalation of Force) rules hurt units on the ground, no matter what. Some of us want to say, “Without any EOF rules we would have won both wars so easily!” To me, these comments belong in the same category as when people say, “Just nuke the whole Middle East and things will be perfect.” Neither statement is true at all (perhaps some will debate me on that).
Having said all this, I do acknowledge that there were times when EOF rules – and uncertainty in how to actually manage them as a leader – made it really tough to be effective on the ground in Iraq.
But there were also times when EOF rules HELPED my unit’s effectiveness, such as in dealing with local Iraqis who turned out to be innocent.
//
Question for RP community -- I’d like to hear from RP members about times when EOF rules actually helped their unit. Or, if you choose, you can also reflect on times when EOF rules made things harder.
Posted in these groups: 
Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) - Afghanistan
Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF)
Rules of Engagement (ROE)
Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) - Afghanistan Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) Rules of Engagement (ROE)
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 90
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I don't even know where to start. EOF, ROE, PID, LIT, Hostile Act, Hostile Intent............now figure out which one applies, while one of your people is screaming because his legs just got blown off, you're being engaged from 3 directions, you can't give a description of who is shooting at you because they're firing from cover and 300m away, there's spotters in between firing positions and you can't get any supporting arms because there's an abandoned mud hut within 1km. ROE's and EOF are only good for public/media relations not for the man who has to close that last 100 yds.
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SSgt Rob Sanders
I had a Platoon Sergeant who served in Beirut. He told me that the ROE were so tight there you could not fire without Regimental approval. He once watch two guys carry an RPK and several belts down the street watched them go into a building. Took RPK fire from the second floor, when they requested permission to return fire it was denied as they could not confirm no civilians in the room.
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Won't vote as it does not apply in my case.
However .. if you are going to make war, make war .. unrelenting, unmitigated war.
You are not going to "win wars easily", but you will win the war and not spend decades grinding against a wall and fighting the same battle over and over.
However .. if you are going to make war, make war .. unrelenting, unmitigated war.
You are not going to "win wars easily", but you will win the war and not spend decades grinding against a wall and fighting the same battle over and over.
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Cpl David Van Dommelen
The biggest problem I have seen is we fight people who are not held to any code of conduct, WE ARE, they shield themselves behind non combatants and if they are harmed or killed our troops have to answer to their command and the press makes it public and usually a lot more dramatic. to all still serving anywhere GOD BLESS, stay safe, and come home
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SPC James Shackelford II
War is hell, and won by the most cunning and ruthless. To win you have to commit to winning. This means sometimes doing whatever it takes to win. Viet Nam was a huge cluster because of no fire zones etc. If you want to play nice in war then go home and play with your dolls. If you want to win then do what it takes to win. Our leaders today are not wanting to let the military train and do their jobs correctly.
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SPC James Shackelford II
Lt. Lozi, It is also why McArther won back the Philipines, Halsey won decisive naval battles, Patton and Bradley won too. Politics kill more men that the actual fighting cause it puts limitations beyond Geneva Convention on our men.
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SSG (Join to see)
I was with an aviation Brigade on the last deployment (2013-14) and our ROE was pretty much do nothing. Granted, unless we were on flight status, we were Fobbits. So, in the event of an "active shooter" on the FOB, we were told not to engage (unless directly fired upon) and let QRF take care of the matter. If possible, we were to seek the cover of a hardened structure.
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When you're in a route clearance unit and you have to warn the idiots in the middle of the night that you have seen them digging in the road with a large package beside him, and can't do a damn thing about it unless he's stupid enough to shoot at you.
That's why ROE/EOF got to be really stupid.
That's why ROE/EOF got to be really stupid.
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1SG Michael Blount
@MSG David Johnson - the rules are largely nothing but using common sense. Now, the problem I have is the people enforcing those rules. That bunch ought to be quarantined somewhere and never released.
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MSG David Johnson
When you're working ISO another uit and they say don't fire until we get permission it makes it really hard to do our jobs or protect ourselves.
However, we had some AWESOME EOD teams that ran embed with us most of the time, they would let us know, "You want to shoot at something, let us know, we'll start the fire and you can protect yourselves if someone fires back".
The EOD teams were mostly Navy EOD from Special Boat units, there were most likely guys from teams too, but they couldn't come right out and say so, so just the innocuous generic 'Special Boat Unit' is all they would admit to. But after working closely with these guys for 4-6 months we knew without knowing.
However, we had some AWESOME EOD teams that ran embed with us most of the time, they would let us know, "You want to shoot at something, let us know, we'll start the fire and you can protect yourselves if someone fires back".
The EOD teams were mostly Navy EOD from Special Boat units, there were most likely guys from teams too, but they couldn't come right out and say so, so just the innocuous generic 'Special Boat Unit' is all they would admit to. But after working closely with these guys for 4-6 months we knew without knowing.
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1SG David Spalding
I completely agree. ROE and EOF in the Stan got ridiculous. On my first tour, if they were armed and digging in the dark - they were done, fire for effect, engage, whatever. My last tour - hearts and minds bull. That may work if you start when they are two years old, but once they're a FAM, their minds are made up. 5.56 is the only hearts and minds that work after that.
How about the last group of GIs that were killed near Bagram? A motorcycle VBIED took them out. How do you work EOF in that situation? Really tough unless you're really experienced over there.
BTW, We only have a little over 9K troops in the Stan now. Why the hell were they even patrolling? That's hardly enough troops to provide base ops and security. On top of that they were USAF. Worse yet, Air Force OSI. What in the hell were they doing patrolling outside of the wire?
How about the last group of GIs that were killed near Bagram? A motorcycle VBIED took them out. How do you work EOF in that situation? Really tough unless you're really experienced over there.
BTW, We only have a little over 9K troops in the Stan now. Why the hell were they even patrolling? That's hardly enough troops to provide base ops and security. On top of that they were USAF. Worse yet, Air Force OSI. What in the hell were they doing patrolling outside of the wire?
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