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So today I received a counseling pushing for UCMJ action by my NCO for defending my peer. Me and my peer and another NCO where having a conversation when my NCO intervene started yelling and blew our conversation out of proportion. So I simply ask if she was having a bad day and why she was accusing my peer of something he never said. So she wrote me a counseling stating that I allowed vulgar language, and EO and I should of correct my peer(which nothing on those lines where mention). Crazy part in that room there was 5 other SM that where commenting in our conversation( which I mentioned to her when getting counseled and got no response)but I’m the only one getting in trouble for not correcting my peer. I was thinking maybe requesting sworn statements, or what should or can do?
Posted in these groups: 
Toxic Leadership
Leadership
Toxic Leadership Leadership
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 24
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Get Statements, and hold on. If nothing comes of it. I don’t know many 1SG or Commanders who would act on a single counseling for a questionable statement. If they bring you on the carpet ask to present the statement and witnesses.
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Yes, I agree. Get all personnel that were witnesses to write sworn statements. MAKE copies!!!! Give a copy to the NCO, PSG, 1SG & Commander (open door policy). If they continue to push for an Article 15. You will go to legal prior to anything happening. Take copies to JAG. If all else fails request open door policy to see your CSM. This shouldn’t really go any further.
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Unfortunately some females feel a need to compensate for being females. Not saying this is the case. But in my opinion, you most CERTAINLY should get sworn statements from those who were there and have first hand knowledge of what transpired. An NCO that butts into a conversation that has nothing to do with him/her is a sorry excuse for a leader. This one sounds like she has an axe to grind. Mind your P's and Q's. When an NCO behaves in this manner, you will have to protect yourself from unjust accusations and punishments. This sadly is nothing new. If possible record your interactions with this person or have someone else in close proximity as a witness. With any luck those who witnessed this will come forward and debunk her accusations and that will serve you in the future. Nothing is better than a LIAR being outed as a LIAR and a POOR EXCUSE for a leader. Good luck
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Vulgar language in the Army?? Say it ain't so... SMH
First things first, why is an E-4 getting counselled for what an NCO said? That makes no sense. E'4's don't "allow" NCO's to do anything. If the NCO needed a counselling for his language, he should have received it himself. Second, unless what was said was racist or sexist or something like that, the commander will likely not care. However, if it did cross the line into sexual harassment or something like that, trouble could be on the way. Follow the advice of others and get sworn statements from those that were there while they can still remember it all. But if you weren't the one who said whatever it was, you shouldn't get in trouble. Remember, a counselling statement is just a record of a conversation. You can agree with it or not and hopefully you annotated your side of the story on the statement.
First things first, why is an E-4 getting counselled for what an NCO said? That makes no sense. E'4's don't "allow" NCO's to do anything. If the NCO needed a counselling for his language, he should have received it himself. Second, unless what was said was racist or sexist or something like that, the commander will likely not care. However, if it did cross the line into sexual harassment or something like that, trouble could be on the way. Follow the advice of others and get sworn statements from those that were there while they can still remember it all. But if you weren't the one who said whatever it was, you shouldn't get in trouble. Remember, a counselling statement is just a record of a conversation. You can agree with it or not and hopefully you annotated your side of the story on the statement.
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SSG Robert Perrotto
MAJ (Join to see) - Sir, please, I am not "reading into" what he posted, he chose the word "vulgar" deliberately to deflect scrutiny. You and I both know, the language used was profanity. I was born at night, but not last night.
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MAJ (Join to see)
SSG Robert Perrotto - Therein lies the question to this whole conversation. Using profanity and saying something that classifies as sexual harassment are two completely different things. While both can be considered vulgar, a typical response to them varies. It's simple, we don't know what was said so we don't know if the reaction was warranted. I already stated and restated that some things said require punishment and that everyone should stop or report it when they hear it. I still disagree with pushing for UCMJ actions on a lower enlisted Soldier for something someone else said or did. Are there exceptions? Sure. Do we have those details? No.
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SSG Robert Perrotto
MAJ (Join to see) - Which is why I said she may have gone overboard with the 4856 recommending UCMJ, and that is a different conversation. I can only go by the information that He posted, He did imply that he was part of the conversation, and did state that he disrespected the NCO. In both instances, he is wrong. I myself would not have recommended UCMJ for the conversation, it crossed over into recommending UCMJ when he publicly questioned the NCO's Authority to correct the situation. Asa with all things, when recommending UCMJ, you counsel each instance of infractions on one 4856 , 1. The vulgar conversation 2. failing to intervene to stop it and 3. disrespecting an NCO along with the magic bullet. I believe that had he just got the butt chewing and drove on, nothing more then a verbal counseling would have occurred, instead, he had to make a comment.
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MAJ (Join to see)
SSG Robert Perrotto - I don't see where he said he disrespected the NCO. Unless you're assuming his asking her if she was having a bad day was disrespect. But he didn't say that was part of the counselling. Look, we can keep going around in circles and you can think whatever you want on the issue. I'll stick to there not being enough information to warrant the counselling. If more details of the situation were provide I could easily change that opinion.
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My recommendation is you ask to speak to the Sergeant privately first thing tomorrow and apologize for your deportment. Whether you committed an EO violation when you questioned whether she was having a bad day (I can see where that comment could be considered sexist), you certainly crossed the line when it comes to disrespect and if she pushes the issue, you will lose. I’m not sure about your EO training but I know in ours we are told if a conversation makes you uncomfortable whether you are a party to that conversation or not you have a moral obligation to correct the offending purpose. That makes her action in interrupting the conversation correct and as your leader she should ensure you understand that you should have made the correction first. As for sworn statements don’t waste your time, as long as she considered the conversation improper, it was.
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Are you being targeted specifically, no , I do not think so. You asked if she was having a bad day, when technically, if you were using vulgar language, it is a no no. Depending upon the language, like sexual body parts, gendered slurs, or sexual acts - your NCO has a moral and legal duty to squash it, and hold people present accountable for not intervening to squash it. By asking that question, in public, you questioned that NCO's authority, and in a way that can be deemed sexist. This has the earmarks of an unsafe work environment, where most people are accepting of this type of language, but one or two are uncomfortable, and feel pressured into accepting it. Sorry mate, technically, you are in the wrong on both accounts.
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Nowadays EO is some serious stuff. Get the statements. Put a packet together and go directly to the 1SG. If you go directly to the commander using the open door policy you may be stepping on a land mine. But if you go to the commander using open door policy make sure to invite the 1SG and give him a heads up so he isn’t caught off guard.
Predators come in all shapes and sizes. You need to protect yourself. Good luck.
Predators come in all shapes and sizes. You need to protect yourself. Good luck.
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