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Wondering if anyone knows what this flag represents? This was found among a friend of mine’s dad’s things. His dad served in our beloved Corps in the late 40s and early 50s. Served at Camp LeJune. Thanks for any help. Get some, Semper Fi.
Awards
Flags and Vexillology
Camp Lejeune
Marines
Edited 10 mo ago
Posted 10 mo ago
Responses: 26
Just taking a SWAG here, but the front part is the shape of an Army, Navy or Air Force guidon. USMC guidon flags are rectangular. Like MSG (Join to see) said, I too assume the '83 is for a year (1883? 1983?)
I discounted Navy and Air Force guidons as they are a uniform color (the Air Force does have some white/blue ones).
The color scheme is not the one for cavalry units (which is red over white, not the other way around) and white over red is associated with 1st Army. However, the Army's heraldic regulation* doesn't show any 'white over red' color scheme for the service.
I have seen bad knock-offs on eBay* that showed a reversed color scheme for the red and white fields.
Between 1836 and 1841, cavalry unit guidons usually showed the regiment on the bottom in red lettering on a white field and a U.S. in white lettering on a red field.
It almost seems that someone made the guidon from a description and flipped it for the 12th cavalry. Only one problem - the 12th cavalry wasn't stood up until 1901 and by that time the guidance had dropped the U.S. on the guidon (it was only done between 1836 and 1841).
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* AR 840-10 - https://history.army.mil/html/forcestruc/docs/AR840-10.pdf
* 7th Cav Guidon (later 1830s) - https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0109/5535/8271/files/1836guidon.jpg?v= [login to see]
* eBay bad reproduction - https://www.ebay.com/itm/b0833v-US-Army-4th-Cavalry-Guide-on-1870s-thru-today-/ [login to see] 38
I discounted Navy and Air Force guidons as they are a uniform color (the Air Force does have some white/blue ones).
The color scheme is not the one for cavalry units (which is red over white, not the other way around) and white over red is associated with 1st Army. However, the Army's heraldic regulation* doesn't show any 'white over red' color scheme for the service.
I have seen bad knock-offs on eBay* that showed a reversed color scheme for the red and white fields.
Between 1836 and 1841, cavalry unit guidons usually showed the regiment on the bottom in red lettering on a white field and a U.S. in white lettering on a red field.
It almost seems that someone made the guidon from a description and flipped it for the 12th cavalry. Only one problem - the 12th cavalry wasn't stood up until 1901 and by that time the guidance had dropped the U.S. on the guidon (it was only done between 1836 and 1841).
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* AR 840-10 - https://history.army.mil/html/forcestruc/docs/AR840-10.pdf
* 7th Cav Guidon (later 1830s) - https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0109/5535/8271/files/1836guidon.jpg?v= [login to see]
* eBay bad reproduction - https://www.ebay.com/itm/b0833v-US-Army-4th-Cavalry-Guide-on-1870s-thru-today-/ [login to see] 38
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COL Randall C.
Cpl Tyler F. - Appreciate the compliment. No sure about 'smartest', but I'll take it. ☺
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LT William Pellegrini
You sound like a man who loves history and will work to insure that you have the historical facts correct. I am such a person and greatly appreciate leaning there are other out there who deal in facts and are willing to spend the time to use reference materials to insure we are dealing with facts. Damn few of us left.
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PO1 Kevin Dougherty
A quick search and I suspect your are correct. I did not see anything even vaguely resembling that for any of the other services. Maybe National Guard or a quasi military unit like Merchant Marine or NOAA?
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Not sure what the '83 represents. Perhaps the year? But, the other part being the 12 over the US with the white over red signifies this possibly to be the 12th US Cavalry. But, normally it's Red over White.
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I know I'm coming in late, and didn't scroll through all the comments, but this is an Americas' Cup Lapel Pin. Not a military decoration at all, for all that it looks like one. It can be Google searched as "Americas' Cup lapel Pin with '83"
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SPC Martin Mahan
It's a bit more than plausible, it's a fact. I did tell how to check it. A quick Google search. It will show others of the identical type that have been put up for sale... For instance: https://arteauto.com/products/three-america-s-cup-lapel-pins-and-one-tie-clip-from-the-personal-collection-of-briggs-cunningham
Three America’s Cup lapel pins and one tie clip from the personal collection of Briggs Cunningham...
Earned while competing in the prestigious event, brass and enamel, some gold plated.
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Suspended Profile
It's most likely a tie clip. Ask your friend if his Dad was a Scout Master in 1983, Troop 12. Maybe worn with a suit and tie when not in his Scout Master uniform.
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Best guess is a unit guidon from the 12th Cavalry Regiment based out of Fort Hood, Texas. Not sure what the '83 represents. Coloration matches the Texas flag - pretty sure there is a tie to Texas. Maybe an unofficial unit guidon made up for the tie clasp? While searching, also saw reference to a 12th Bomber group of the 83rd Bomber squadron... less confident about that one.
Thanks for that trip down the Google hole!
Thanks for that trip down the Google hole!
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I am attempting to attach a document from the Marine Corp University. The 12 Marine Division has a storied history. Since your father was in the Corp this might be a good place to start. The only current 12th is an Arrillery Regiment in Okinawa I believe.
https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/Brief%20History%20of%20the%2012th%20Marines.pdf
https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/Brief%20History%20of%20the%2012th%20Marines.pdf
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Try The Institute of Heraldry Website that would a great place to start
https://tioh.army.mil/
https://tioh.army.mil/
The Institute of Heraldry | Home
The purpose of this site is to provide information on United States Army heraldic entitlements; how they are displayed, and how and why it is worn.
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Looks like 12th Cav with service in 1983. 12th Cav is a Ft Hood and part of the 1 Cav Div.
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