Posted on May 11, 2016
Are our Officers and NCOs still using 4856 as a tool to better our Soldiers and to hold them accountable on their actions and why?
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Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 20
Counseling happens every day, if the leadership is doing it right. I view a 4856 as the follow up to the verbal counseling,it's a check and balance that what was intended to be said was, and what was received, was.
No different then then following up a phone call or face to face discussion with an email that summarises the points made, actions agreed upon. It gives both parties in the communication a chance to review what they said, or what they heard and seek clarification if needed.
The preformatted 4856 counseling session is only useful for a specific counseling need, basically a written statement of standards met or not, actions required or failed to be done.
Or perhaps a positive / negitive performanced based single event counseling , as a "log" for use later in writing a award, evaluation, or other action.
No different then then following up a phone call or face to face discussion with an email that summarises the points made, actions agreed upon. It gives both parties in the communication a chance to review what they said, or what they heard and seek clarification if needed.
The preformatted 4856 counseling session is only useful for a specific counseling need, basically a written statement of standards met or not, actions required or failed to be done.
Or perhaps a positive / negitive performanced based single event counseling , as a "log" for use later in writing a award, evaluation, or other action.
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I think this depends on the culture of the organization and the personal habits or the one using the forms. I used them more as developmental tools vs. building a record. The 4856 is a valuable tool for performance and event oriented counseling to establish goals, review progress, and maintain a record of results. By keeping these records, the NCOER/OER and/or award will pretty much write itself. I did use it to cover myself when I suspected or knew I had someone who would...make my life interesting but often this was more event oriented.
I began my service in a real paperless Army meaning sometimes people took a walk to the tree line ( area J at Ft. Bragg) or the squad pressured proper behavior/performance in young troopers. These examples may sounds rough to some, but what it did do was address issues and problems without damaging their career. Don't get me wrong, there is a time and place for documentation. Like anything else, it can be taken too far where it promotes a zero tolerance environment for honest mistakes.
I began my service in a real paperless Army meaning sometimes people took a walk to the tree line ( area J at Ft. Bragg) or the squad pressured proper behavior/performance in young troopers. These examples may sounds rough to some, but what it did do was address issues and problems without damaging their career. Don't get me wrong, there is a time and place for documentation. Like anything else, it can be taken too far where it promotes a zero tolerance environment for honest mistakes.
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I once had a soldier who had some financial problems. Over the course of our time at Fort Riley, I was determined to help him with his debt problems. The 1st. Counseling involved him acknowledging he had a debt problem and wanted help. I had him enroll in the debt management program that ACS/AER had at the time. Subsequent counseling sessions documented his attendance and progress. This young soldier eventually was able to break the cycle of payday loans and become self sufficient. These counselings were never used as a punishment tool or in any other negative fashion. I used them to document our discussions, expectations, his feelings, his progress and attendance to his classes which I made mandatory based on his desire to get help. Later the soldier got into some unrelated trouble and the CSM wanted to see any & every counseling the soldier ever received. He believed that if soldiers were properly guided through counseling they'd have less trouble. The CSM was less inclined to dispense discipline on a soldier who wasn't counseled but instead reprimand that soldiers leader. Nevertheless, this young sergeants counselings were all there. The positive along with the neutral and negative. So the CSM calls me and says he wants to talk to me. I visit the CSM at his office and he has nothing but praise for me. In all his years the only thing nearly all NCO's used it for were negative counselings. That was a little over 25 years ago and I wonder today if Sgt. K stayed out of financial trouble.
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I gave an unlimited supply of them, in my printer. Any enlisted Soldier has to receive a minimum of 4 per year. Leaders must counsel, in writing, for both good and bad. The problem I keep running across is that folks believe verbal counseling is good enough. "Virtual" counseling doesn't count. If it is not on paper, it may as well have never happened.
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LTC (Join to see)
Airborne! It seems like our Leaders are shying away from written counselings. So as a results, we as the organization start seeing toxic Leaders who doesn't care to mentor or take care of their Soldiers but driving their own glories, and incompetence Leaders who keep failing their Soldiers and their missions. 4856 is an excellent tool to solve all of that, if, and only if, our Leaders will use it the right way.
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SSG Dennis Grossmann
Another problem is there are some leaders handing out generic counseling. All that does is allow a soldier to continue bad habits. Or to not maintain the good ones.
I ran out of upvotes for the day or else I would have on your comment.
I ran out of upvotes for the day or else I would have on your comment.
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SSG Dennis Grossmann
LTC (Join to see) - I forgot to mention that counseling are a way to show how well leaders are working, or not. Giving a soldier a negative counseling and failing to follow up can reflect a nonchalant attitude on the part of the leader.
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And if you are, that's outstanding. Let's spread the words to encourage our Leaders to use it (4856) if they have stopped for some reasons. I have seen too many Leaders and Soldiers who are failing or fail others simply because they are never counseled or their Leaders never hold them accountable.
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SSG Jason Penn
Remember, the 4856 is not just for "bad" counselings. During my first deployment to Iraq, I was a Squad Leader, and had a female soldier who took it upon herself to wash one of our vehicles by herself for redeployment. She knew that the 1SG was a stickler and his cleanliness standards were higher than U.S. Customs. She even snatched the power washer wand out of another soldier's hand and wouldn't let anyone else touch it.
she did this showing initiative and dedication to duty as an E4, which is rare in today's Army. She thought she was in trouble when I approached her to counsel her on a job well done.
she did this showing initiative and dedication to duty as an E4, which is rare in today's Army. She thought she was in trouble when I approached her to counsel her on a job well done.
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I know I use them to help develop my NCOs and I hold my NCOs accountable if/when they are not counseling their Soldiers.
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Yes, because it is important and the only true forcing function for good or bad behavior.
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Are they being used to better Soldiers: no
To hold them accountable: sometimes.
To many SNCOs of the current army think that ALL counseling must be on a 4856; and don't seem to remember 22-100 under the oak tree counseling. Soldiers react better to face to face interaction that isn't labeled "counseling" I capture these on 4856s at the end of the month or quarter but I don't feel enslaved to it. I supervise over a dozen people and counsel and mentor more. If I wrote all that down that would be all I do; and has been on occasion. I don't stress about it anymore.
If there's a reason to document a counseling or expectation I make sure it gets captured. But when I spend 15-30 minutes talking to a soldier; then the next one; then pissing on some fire that popped up: I don't lose sleep over not writing every word of counseling,coaching or mentoring I do each day. Because I'm human.
My soldiers still achieve, complete mission, and are competitive for semi and fully centralized promotions so maybe the world doesn't fall into choas if you don't document every word on a 4856z
To hold them accountable: sometimes.
To many SNCOs of the current army think that ALL counseling must be on a 4856; and don't seem to remember 22-100 under the oak tree counseling. Soldiers react better to face to face interaction that isn't labeled "counseling" I capture these on 4856s at the end of the month or quarter but I don't feel enslaved to it. I supervise over a dozen people and counsel and mentor more. If I wrote all that down that would be all I do; and has been on occasion. I don't stress about it anymore.
If there's a reason to document a counseling or expectation I make sure it gets captured. But when I spend 15-30 minutes talking to a soldier; then the next one; then pissing on some fire that popped up: I don't lose sleep over not writing every word of counseling,coaching or mentoring I do each day. Because I'm human.
My soldiers still achieve, complete mission, and are competitive for semi and fully centralized promotions so maybe the world doesn't fall into choas if you don't document every word on a 4856z
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