Posted on Feb 20, 2015
Are you a liar and would you defend it? Who's pants are on fire?
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In light of the discussion about officers lying and being willing to defend it; what are your thoughts?
This thread is meant to survey to the RallyPoint community.
White lies are still lies, they should never replace tact and constructive criticism but that is another discussion.
Omission is not lying if you are not supposed to talk about it.
Yes no body is completely free from lying but lying as part of you military profession is something different.
This thread is meant to survey to the RallyPoint community.
White lies are still lies, they should never replace tact and constructive criticism but that is another discussion.
Omission is not lying if you are not supposed to talk about it.
Yes no body is completely free from lying but lying as part of you military profession is something different.
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 10
We need to look at the driving force brought out in this piece, not the FACT that information is semi-factual at times. The overwhelming amount of tracking, checking, taskings, inspections and programs in place in the Army is common knowledge at the tactical level. When I was a Troop Commander, it wasn't nearly as bad as it is now. We have instituted so many mandatory training requirements on top of METL focused training requirements on top of inspections and taskings that it is impossible to get them all done to teh standard they are written to. So...you chose which ones you are going to do. The right way from that point on is to tell your higher command that you aren't going to get to the other ones. We do this. Sometimes, the higher command comes back and provides priorities in order to focus you from that point. If they don't, then they leave it up to their subordinates to determine the priorities, which is fine by me. If the staff work isn't done at the highest levels to determine the amount of time it takes to accomplish the tasks in the Annual Training Guidance and all of the FRAGOs that follow, they have failed, and that is what this article is about. If you leave it up to me at the Squadron level, I will decide what I am not going to do. I will tell you about it, and I'm not going to lie about what I am not going to do, but it is often referred to as "selective disobedience." Rarely do we report we are 100% on anything because it's simply not possible. Any command that requires a 100% completion on something has a commander that doesn't understand where he came from. I PCS or ETS 30 Soldiers a month. I generally get the same amount of new Soldiers. If we have SHARP training that month, my numbers are NEVER going to get to 100%. I might be that guy who reports the real numbers and gets screwed by the guys that lie about it. Better that, and give my higher commanders the right picture than tell them a lie and make them think we are better than we are. Maintenance is the same way. Our goal is 90%, but if we aren't there, I'll explain why because it's usually a money or a system problem. If I tell them we are at 85% and that we are experiencing a parts delay, a Division Commander can fix it. He makes 90% a goal in order to let him know when he needs to get personally involved. If you lie about it, his CCIR is now irrelevant because you want to look good instead of doing your FU(&ing job. Truth. Right now. With background information. Someday it might get me fired. Until then, it's the only way the Army will work correctly.
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LTC (Join to see)
I would vote your comment up a 1,000 times if I could. You got right to the problem.
I agree, Sir, thank you. We are avoiding the truth and lying to ourselves. Lying is wrong but the system has made telling the truth difficult. The system while not rewarding lying, it encourages it and rewards those who do it well enough not to get caught.
I agree, Sir, thank you. We are avoiding the truth and lying to ourselves. Lying is wrong but the system has made telling the truth difficult. The system while not rewarding lying, it encourages it and rewards those who do it well enough not to get caught.
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LTC (Join to see)
Good God, Sir as I continue to read your post it rings so true. Bad staff work is creating the problem, commanders have more power than the staff but the staff is just important and therefore chilling on staff is not good staff work.
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LTC (Join to see)
False reporting only makes the problem worse by not giving the Higher Command an opportunity to fix problems may be only he can at his level. Other leaders lying are like have a bunch of paper gazelles racing the real gazelles. They may look like they are in better shape then the real on to the herd leader but what happens to paper gazelles when the big cat is on the hunt? They get left behind. False reporting seems to have replaced doing ones job. Being a better deceptive briefer has replaced attention to detail.
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Capt Richard I P.
Deciding who, what, when, where, how and why to trust is the quintessential human problem. I could tell you I never lie. But I can't prove it. You'll have to trust me. By trusting me you make yourself vulnerable to a lie.
True/False matches the essential dichotomy of most things: on/off; black/white; hot/cold; energy/not energy; on/off; 0/1. But like many of these there is a gradation in between that becomes difficult to judge. Recognizing the difference is an intense challenge, really it's our life's work.
This will quickly connect to philosophy in general and Objectivism in particular.
“People think that a liar gains a victory over his victim. What I’ve learned is that a lie is an act of self-abdication, because one surrenders one’s reality to the person to whom one lies, making that person one’s master, condemning oneself from then on to faking the sort of reality that person’s view requires to be faked…The man who lies to the world, is the world’s slave from then on…"
― Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
True/False matches the essential dichotomy of most things: on/off; black/white; hot/cold; energy/not energy; on/off; 0/1. But like many of these there is a gradation in between that becomes difficult to judge. Recognizing the difference is an intense challenge, really it's our life's work.
This will quickly connect to philosophy in general and Objectivism in particular.
“People think that a liar gains a victory over his victim. What I’ve learned is that a lie is an act of self-abdication, because one surrenders one’s reality to the person to whom one lies, making that person one’s master, condemning oneself from then on to faking the sort of reality that person’s view requires to be faked…The man who lies to the world, is the world’s slave from then on…"
― Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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LTC (Join to see)
Excellent Ayn Rand quote.
For some reason I think of compassionate bigotry.
Or the deception of altruists that claim to be selfless, when in reality they are asking someone else to make the sacrifice.
For some reason I think of compassionate bigotry.
Or the deception of altruists that claim to be selfless, when in reality they are asking someone else to make the sacrifice.
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I can't say never lied period but I never knowingly lied when I wasn't ordered too.
Here is me being very honest.
As a young child, I hung out with thieves and became very good at it and part of that required me to lie. But then I got caught and burned really bad. I saw certain forms of stealing as victimless but I had lied so much, I lied to myself. I had a realization and when I realized thieves steal from each other and honor among thieves is not honor. I was very young and I changed. I do not like thieves and I was criminal and changing my disposition toward crime made me a target. I began to defend others and I hated bullies. When others have trouble telling the truth, I enjoy telling it. Stealing is wrong but stealing from a buddy means the problem has become pathological.
Here is me being very honest.
As a young child, I hung out with thieves and became very good at it and part of that required me to lie. But then I got caught and burned really bad. I saw certain forms of stealing as victimless but I had lied so much, I lied to myself. I had a realization and when I realized thieves steal from each other and honor among thieves is not honor. I was very young and I changed. I do not like thieves and I was criminal and changing my disposition toward crime made me a target. I began to defend others and I hated bullies. When others have trouble telling the truth, I enjoy telling it. Stealing is wrong but stealing from a buddy means the problem has become pathological.
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LTC (Join to see)
Yes, I lied as kid typo, thanks for bringing to my attention. Even George Washington lied.
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Lying is an essential part of the human experience. Even infants practive dishonesty and deceit before they can talk. If total honesty were introduced into the system, the whole thing would collapse. Our day to day interactions are filled with teeny tiny white lies, or "sparing people's feelings" or telling people what you feel they want to hear.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
I suspect that the definition of "lie" is very subjective and arbitrary. We all, every single one of us, lie every single day. Whether it's blatant, subconscious, ommision, stretching, qualifying, selective interpretation, etc... All humans lie.
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LTC (Join to see)
Yes many of us do lie without knowing it many times.
But one whose practice to decieve lives in a world of make believe.
Lying is wrong, and is not excusable but it is forgivable. I will not say I never lie but I think do so in the context of the military profession it potential corrosive and toxic.
We can survive the poison as long as we are not succumbed by it.
But one whose practice to decieve lives in a world of make believe.
Lying is wrong, and is not excusable but it is forgivable. I will not say I never lie but I think do so in the context of the military profession it potential corrosive and toxic.
We can survive the poison as long as we are not succumbed by it.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
Day to day life in the military forces us to change our definition of “lie” to meet each situation. We never lie, we practice OPSEC. Or we “interpret things differently”. Or we rationalize. Or we “brief the slides”. But not lie. Oh no, we would never do that. While whatever was said might not have been STRICTLY true, it certainly wasn’t a lie. No no no. That’s something other people do.
It’s just a constant mental exercise. But everyone lies. That’s the very thing that the military silently runs on. Almost every single Evaluation report, award, briefing, tracker, memo, letter, or email written since 1775 has been filled with things that, while not strictly true, were not lies. Never those. It’s not right or wrong. It just is.
It’s just a constant mental exercise. But everyone lies. That’s the very thing that the military silently runs on. Almost every single Evaluation report, award, briefing, tracker, memo, letter, or email written since 1775 has been filled with things that, while not strictly true, were not lies. Never those. It’s not right or wrong. It just is.
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Sgt Michael Furphy
I can't say I never lied when I was in the Corps, but I never remember doing it on purpose. For example, while training out in the field, we had some downtime. I utilized the time to train my men on basic attacks. How to run a squad in an attack. At one time I had a brand new private, his first time in the field run the show. I didn't know anyone was watching. After the attack, my Captain and our Bn LTC came over and my captain started chewing me out for conducting such a lousy attack. I just took his ass chewing but the private had a set of nads and spoke up telling them that he ran the attack. The Captain asked me why Pvt. Cruz was running the attack and I told him that I was training all my men, that in combat their superiors might be killed and they have to know what to do. They both looked surprised and the LTC gave me a lot of praise and told the CPT. in front of all of us that he should have leaders like me and then he chewed the CPT. out! All of our mouths dropped to the ground. Maybe it was wrong for him to chew out our CPT. in front of us, but it made me and I'm sure the others feel pretty darn good to have a LTC. that would stand up for us.
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Anyone who believes officers don't lie has never heard some of the elephants told in Division maintenance meetings.
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It is sad when our leaders have to lie to meet standards. I don't think this is acceptable, but at the same time we've created this type of environment; where it is unacceptable to fail, even when it’s no fault of your own. When one leader lies to meet standards, the other leader knows he’ll have to explain why it was not possible (essentially throwing the other leader under the bus), accept the failure and the fallout (career impacts?), or lie.
There's often too much to accomplish and not enough time. Leaders need to lay out the requirements and the time standards, present it to the chain of command and ask what should be cut to meet the requirements and time limitations. If the chain of command doesn't budge on the requirements, then I would inform them that the time to complete the requirements would have adverse effects on unit morale. We are soldiers, our lives are not our own. Convenience is not something we should expect.
There's often too much to accomplish and not enough time. Leaders need to lay out the requirements and the time standards, present it to the chain of command and ask what should be cut to meet the requirements and time limitations. If the chain of command doesn't budge on the requirements, then I would inform them that the time to complete the requirements would have adverse effects on unit morale. We are soldiers, our lives are not our own. Convenience is not something we should expect.
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LTC (Join to see)
Telling the truth got me into trouble. I asked once what was priority and I was told everything was. I got into an argument that I couldn't win. When a system where the only way to win is lie is in place; those who prescribe to it live in the land of make believe.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
Yes, the truth has been the cause of trouble more than one career. It gets me into trouble all the time, but I wouldn't have it any other way.
A Marine officer was trying to solve my promotion problem last week and basically told me to suck up to those responsible for the process. I tried to tell him countless times that it was not the right answer. I should be promoted based on my potential as a soldier and leader, not because someone does or doesn't like me. I want the reason I'm not being promoted to be based in regulations. My actions would be lie and against everything I stand for if I brown-nosed my way up the ranks. I told him that I would rather be an E-5 fighting for the system to work as it should, than an E-6 who compromised their integrity for self gain. Needless to say, he didn't agree with me.
A Marine officer was trying to solve my promotion problem last week and basically told me to suck up to those responsible for the process. I tried to tell him countless times that it was not the right answer. I should be promoted based on my potential as a soldier and leader, not because someone does or doesn't like me. I want the reason I'm not being promoted to be based in regulations. My actions would be lie and against everything I stand for if I brown-nosed my way up the ranks. I told him that I would rather be an E-5 fighting for the system to work as it should, than an E-6 who compromised their integrity for self gain. Needless to say, he didn't agree with me.
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Sgt Michael Furphy
Good job Sgt. Kristin Wiley! I never brown nosed and when I got some rank, I gave the brown nosers the hardest job. One lance corporal made me some personal stationary when computers first came out. I handed them back to him and told him to quit kissing ass. He never had much to say to me after that.
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"I can neither confirm or deny that *fill in the blank* did or did not occur. Thank you. Any further questions?" My response to anything I don't want to answer. Honesty or the closest we can come to it is my best policy. I have learned a long time ago that the truth will eventually always come out, better to be on the right side of things.
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COL (Join to see)
"Senator, I cannot recall ever having made that statement, but if I did, I would not be at liberty to discuss it in this forum at this time."
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I think the main issue is discretion and consequences. If a lie is harmful in any way, it should not be told. By nature, I tend to be brutally honest, yet I'm also the queen of sugar coating. To me, lies are frustrating, as I tend to over analyze. Most others are not affected the same way. I feel betrayed if lied to, yet others can just brush it off.
There is a lot of thought that goes into lying, so therefore one has to be very careful. There are times it's appropriate, especially if it is done to protect or prevent panic, but it is usually better to just be honest.
There is a lot of thought that goes into lying, so therefore one has to be very careful. There are times it's appropriate, especially if it is done to protect or prevent panic, but it is usually better to just be honest.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
I've always thought of the difference between honesty and intregrity was similiar to what you are saying. Honesty is not hiding behind words or masking actions, but integrity to me is doing this for the right reasons. I can tell you the truth that I don't like or that you smell, but who benefits from that?
For example, an honest expression of emotions would be showing that you're scared in battle. Those with intregrity know that it's important to keep it together for those under their command. Not showing fear isn't the same thing as not being fearful. Whereas, a lie would be saying that I'm not afraid.
For example, an honest expression of emotions would be showing that you're scared in battle. Those with intregrity know that it's important to keep it together for those under their command. Not showing fear isn't the same thing as not being fearful. Whereas, a lie would be saying that I'm not afraid.
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LTC (Join to see)
SGT Kristin Wiley wish I could vote you up more times there. So I agree with you. Thank you.
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Sometimes you gotta lie, based on what you know but cannot share. It's often lying by omission, as SSG Robert Burns posted, but not always.
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LTC (Join to see)
I also redirect to what COL (Join to see) , said he is on point as to the core issue in the military. Lying as a common practice to reflect we on themselves. I am gald he posted what he did, he has summed the problem up well.
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