Posted on Oct 21, 2016
SFC Observer   Controller/Trainer (Oc/T)
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Responses: 170
SSG Section Chief
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Definitely no no no no!! When every system fails you have your good ole compass, watch, rifle and boots to get you where you need to go. Don't lose the fundamentals.
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SFC Timothy Dutcher
SFC Timothy Dutcher
9 y
My thought it should be a zero day test process with PT. In-process, weigh-in, PT test, and land nav course. BLC should be teaching leadership skills, not level 1 skills. The STX is too reliant on time sensitive completion of tasks to have the timeline sabotaged by Joe having issues with reading a map and compass. Being where you are supposed to be when you are supposed to be there is 95% of life. Of course, I also wish the Army had the resources so BLC was MOS specific. Here I am speaking like a grunt. I also don't think a grunt should be going to BLC without an EIB. The mastery of skill level 1 tasks.
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SPC John McDuffie
SPC John McDuffie
9 y
I agree and disagree, Land Nav should stay within the course but it shouldn't be weighted as a GO - NO GO. Many units don't train on land nav more than once a year and even if they do that training is probably only a few hours long. Land nav should be taught and reinforced. The main focus of BLC is, developing basic leadership skills, land navigation will not help junior NCOs counsel and grow lower enlisted professionally. Those who would argue that NCOs can grow by "teaching land nav", well what if the Army gutted the lesson planning and class development in the BLC course to make room for a solid land nav part; now we would have leaders who can use a map, but can't effectively relay their knowledge to their team. I say, let it stay, but focus on professional growth not basic-skills.
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1SG Billye Jackson
1SG Billye Jackson
9 y
Train Your self and your Troops. As a Fist Plt. Sgt I made up Training Schedule.
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SSG Section Chief
SSG (Join to see)
9 y
ISFC (Join to see) - i am currently helping a soldier get ready for BLC and it has changed so much I saw the curriculum for BLC and they have the students teaching a class how to write a memorandum, a sworn statement?!! I never had to do that when I went through WLC it was all about OPORDS troop leading procedures conduct PT and field time.
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SFC James Asbill
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Electronic equipment does not always work ... so the old standard low tech solutions should continue to be taught and trained ...
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SSgt Special Operations Forces/Personnel Recover (SOF/PR) Integrated Instruments and Flight Controls Systems
SSgt (Join to see)
9 y
I agree, Land Navigation is the most primal example of leading the way. Your Land Nav skills tell you how to get to the objective, your leadership gets your troops there with you. SFC Robert Dimitroff -
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SGT Lee Hopkins
SGT Lee Hopkins
9 y
The Navy has started bring back the use of sextant training because of electronic failuer
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SSG Jeffrey Monk
SSG Jeffrey Monk
9 y
I have as much faith in the Pluger and Blue Force Tracker as much as I in Politicians. My compass and protractor have never let me down and never run out of power or sat relay.
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SGM Chief Executive Officer (Ceo)
SGM (Join to see)
9 y
SSG Bob Parenteau - "11B is the primary MOS no matter what your job is." I have heard that said so many times ever since I came into the Army in 1973. It's a great tag line, but it simply isn't true in practice. Beyond BTC, we don't train, drill, or evaluate Soldiers who aren't 11Bs on 11B skills; only on the skills of their individual MOS. Yes, they all have to pass weapon qualification, but only a range test, not any other kinds of skills of maneuver at any level of infantry team, squad, platoon, or above. So we're only kidding ourselves to think that every soldier is an infantryman at the end of the day. I definitely agree with you about our over-reliance on electronics, though, and the need to keep up with our hard skills like land navigation.
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MGySgt James Forward
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Easy answer. NO. If you can't read and navigate by map you obviously don't need to be an NCO. Semper Fi. this is a basic military skill.
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CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025
CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025
6 y
MGySgt James Forward That is work! One slow
day at NTC, just for practice, I ‘found’ three Benchmark Monuments. The Bronze Medallion with the co-ordinates stamped upon them had been purloined!
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As a leader do you feel that Land Navigation should be taken out from the Noncommissioned Officer Professional Development System (NCOPDS)?
SFC George Smith
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oh Hell no...
Old School Land Nav should be taught and especially with a Map and Compass...
One of these Days some one is going to get stupid and Nuke the Satellites and there is going to be No More GPS... so they will need to know how to Use a Map and Compass... or just wonder around aimlessly ... LBS... Lost Bigger than "Stuff"
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SSG Curtis Dietrich
SSG Curtis Dietrich
9 y
I think that time may be sooner than later...
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CAPT Kevin B.
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We've seen the good answer for when technology craps out. So you need to pack your plastic and china markers as well. That said, sometimes things change which makes a skill so obsolete, it's not taught anymore. For me it was learning how to write backwards. When you worked the edge lit plexiglas vertical plots, you didn't want to be standing between the officer who needed the info and the plot. So we stood behind it in the dark and wrote with white china markers backwards. At some point they made all the VPs go away in favor of screens on the bulkhead. Tied directly into the sensors, much faster, and no human error in transcription. Some skills like Morse Code and even tap code could save your bacon, but the odds of needing it is very remote. So with a fixed training time and money to do it, they push out what you need 95+% of the time. The LandNav is so you can be a viable asset when tech goes south vs. just being lost in space.
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SGT Mary G.
SGT Mary G.
9 y
Yes - Morse Code should also continue to be taught and learned.
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1SG First Sergeant
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First, we are saying the next war when we are still in the current wars, Iraq and Afghanistan are not over and Soldiers/Marines are in a gun fight right now! The tools of our craft are always being refined, land navigation is one of the most basic, fundamental, foundational, (what ever you want to call it) skills a Soldier can master. (When I say Soldier I mean all branches)
I recently sent two cyber candidates to the US Army Ranger School, and boom you guessed it, land navigation kicked their butt and they must try again. We can become as fancy and as tech as we want, but don't forget we still are fighting people who do not need a GPS and could care less about mass data collection on the battle field.
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CSM First Sergeant
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I think land navigation is a perishable skill that every Soldier must know. Basic Training-YES...BLC-YES... I don't think, however, that it should be included into every NCOPDS. In BLC, Soldiers are still learning basic skills and knowledge of how to be an NCO. It is one of the first phases of the development system where it's MOS immaterial. Here is where land navigation should remain. As for all other courses, ALC, SLC, MLC, etc., Soldiers are now learning the specifics of their military occupational specialty and they should be learning the systems of what's being used out in the force. CPOF, JCR, for example, are tools that should be included instead of land navigation- and maybe they already are. I'm not quite sure, but systems such as these are what Soldiers should be learning. Land navigation, specifically for my MOS as a 19D, should be a continuous lesson re-enforced at the unit level, at least quarterly, not at the school house. When you go out to the field nowadays most Soldiers are carrying GPSs that they have bought instead of the compass they should have purchased. Times are indeed changing. It's sometimes hard to adjust.
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SFC Observer   Controller/Trainer (Oc/T)
SFC (Join to see)
9 y
1SG Brown thank you for your response. i will agree that times are changing especially with the new Soldiers we continue to get. According to a Kaiser foundation study that was conducted in 2010 children between the ages of eight and 18 spend an average of 7 hours and 38 minutes a day with digital media. that was just in 2010 imagine what the average is now. So with that being said yes Global Positioning Sysyem's are becoming very popular.
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1LT William Clardy
1LT William Clardy
9 y
Regardless of how popular or ubiquitous they are, SFC (Join to see), it was a well-established fact a quarter of a century ago that they can be spoofed. Even without spoofing, there are times where the system is not available (how many satellites are within LOS when you're at the bottom of a very deep gulley in very rugged terrain?) or just not working correctly (I once drove for 2 hours with a GPS system displaying my car approximately 100 meters to the left of the interstate I was driving on). Knowing how to tell when your GPS is wrong is impossible unless you know how to estimate your location by terrain association.
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LTC Stephen Conway
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No! since our adversaries will blind Us in the next war and GPS may be compromised . We need to keep map reading/land navigation is relevant.
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SFC Observer   Controller/Trainer (Oc/T)
SFC (Join to see)
9 y
Sir thank you for the response.
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1SG Rudolph Watt
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It is a skill that should be taught in all leadership courses up to senior leadership courses, in the year and a half in a war zone and seeing electronics fail, the good old compass, map and stubby pencil always worked
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1SG Brian Adams
1SG Brian Adams
9 y
Concur Top..!
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SSgt Carpenter
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It is a basic soldier skill. The land nav skill required to graduate BLC is very low. A person does not need any prior knowledge of land nav to follow the instructions given by the SGLs. The courses are self correcting. Any soldier in good enough physical condition to hustle around the land nav course, can literally plot their way around by the tags they find on the posts.

In other words the land nav thought at BLC is basic enough every soldier should be able to do it.
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SFC Observer   Controller/Trainer (Oc/T)
SFC (Join to see)
9 y
I do agree with you it is a 10 level task but yet we have Specialist(P), Staff Sergeants (SSG) and Sergeant First Class(SFC) that fail. I think it is good for the reason that it will help in the process of Qualitative Management Program (QMP) as QMP looks at has the Noncommissioned Officer (NCO) received a failed to meet course standards DA1059. Thank you for your response
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SSgt Carpenter
SSgt (Join to see)
9 y
SFC (Join to see) - I didn't notice that you'd replied till now. When I went through BLC, we had a SPC in my class fail the course. He was given the opportunity to retrain, and retry. He passed on a second try, however failed out of BLC during the FTX. He simply wasn't ready to be an NCO. I felt bad for him, but I think his unit screwed him by sending him to BLC unprepared in just about every way.
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