Posted on Jun 26, 2017
As a Master Fitness Trainer, and dealing with Unit level PT goals, do you believe that PRT is affective?
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Over the years, I have heard many different viewpoints about PRT. Having gone through the course, I learned many things and most of all learned how to properly do PRT. Trying to change the stigma of PRT has been a difficult one and it takes a lot of patience when trying to teach PRT correctly. With all this being done, I still hear a lot of people saying PRT is ineffective and should be gone.
PRT (Army)
Physical Training
AR 600-9
Fitness
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 15
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As a Drill Sergeant I have witnessed PRT be extremely effective. We have kids of the video game generation with zero athletic experience go from doing zero push ups, zero sit ups, and 20 min two mile runs too being able to pass with 50 points in each event. While the scores are not outstanding in their own right the transormation of the level of conditioning it's impressive. When done correctly I firmly believe PRT is effective.
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SPC Glenn Lovell
50 being the benchmark, I'm sure the DS' are getting most of them above 50. But 0-50 is a massive achievement.
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Suspended Profile
Cpl Earl Armstrong - That is absolutely impossible.
An average unit in the Army, of soldiers who have -years- of physical fitness instruction and experience under them, won't see 100% of soldiers having 280+. So why would you think that 9 weeks is enough time to accomplish this?
Basic is about getting civilian children, and occasionally adults, to the standard. Not far exceeding it.
An average unit in the Army, of soldiers who have -years- of physical fitness instruction and experience under them, won't see 100% of soldiers having 280+. So why would you think that 9 weeks is enough time to accomplish this?
Basic is about getting civilian children, and occasionally adults, to the standard. Not far exceeding it.
SFC (Join to see)
Cpl Earl Armstrong - Sounds like you should go be a Drill Sergeant/Drill Instructor; you might do better. Good luck!
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Cpl Earl Armstrong
I don't believe an average of 280 out of basic is impossible not unless recruiting standards are so low the Army will take anyone with a heartbeat. I know this has been years ago 1994 to be exact the Marines made me take a pft before I was allowed to ship to boot camp. I was already scoring 220 before I entered boot camp. At 18-25 the age of the avg boot you should already be in good shape and after basic you should be in the best shape of your life. So 280 is a realistic goal
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I think too many Soldiers expect PRT program to somehow create Soldier athletes and don't really understand how the program works and what it is designed to do.
My understanding is that PRT, is designed to build and train muscle movement that will be useful during combat. But, like any fitness program, it relies on proper diet and sleep to be effective. I think this is a major area that needs improvement, Army Wide. When this is combined with half-assed PRT programs, you get results that don't meet expectations.
My understanding is that PRT, is designed to build and train muscle movement that will be useful during combat. But, like any fitness program, it relies on proper diet and sleep to be effective. I think this is a major area that needs improvement, Army Wide. When this is combined with half-assed PRT programs, you get results that don't meet expectations.
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SPC Brady Allen
Completely agree with you. I think where we lose the effectiveness of PRT is at the Unit. Unfortunately, changing that trend is hard when senior leaders think otherwise. After I completed the course, I instructed all TL's and above the proper steps of PRT. I emphasized how soldiers and leaders USUALLY do an exercise and the correct way, explaining what one is supposed to feel when correctly doing an exercise (I.e squat bender, windmill, and rower).
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Definitely agree with the guys that say that PRT is effective. And just like you said, there is still many leaders in the Army that do not believe the in the new PRT programs and also refuse to embrace it which is unacceptable.
One of my Brigade SGM once decided to take over PT and conduct it for 30 days. His plan was 30 day running challenge (which was not a challenge because it was mandatory). It went something like: 3 days a week doing long runs and two days doing sprints. It was not long into this PT plan that many soldiers started getting shin splints and other injuries. Many of them (even guys with 300 APFT score) ended up in getting temp profiles. I am sure that his intentions were good, but the problem is that he did not have an understanding about the PRT principles of precision, progression, and integration in order to avoid injuries.
One of my Brigade SGM once decided to take over PT and conduct it for 30 days. His plan was 30 day running challenge (which was not a challenge because it was mandatory). It went something like: 3 days a week doing long runs and two days doing sprints. It was not long into this PT plan that many soldiers started getting shin splints and other injuries. Many of them (even guys with 300 APFT score) ended up in getting temp profiles. I am sure that his intentions were good, but the problem is that he did not have an understanding about the PRT principles of precision, progression, and integration in order to avoid injuries.
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Suspended Profile
This article sums up my thoughts perfectly.
https://www.armytimes.com/articles/army-physical-un-fitness-a-system-that-promotes-injury-and-poor-nutrition
There's a reason why no other workout program on the planet uses PRT drills. There's a reason why no civilian personal trainer or Special Forces guys use it.
https://www.armytimes.com/articles/army-physical-un-fitness-a-system-that-promotes-injury-and-poor-nutrition
There's a reason why no other workout program on the planet uses PRT drills. There's a reason why no civilian personal trainer or Special Forces guys use it.
SPC Brady Allen
I know CoC plays a big part in the abilities and permissions of an MFT. Do you think if an MFT had more authority in PT,do you think the results would be different?
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1SG (Join to see)
In a perfect world, we could have all the things that the article spells out, but ours is far from perfect. Most of the recommendations involve the kind of time and money that most units don't have. There is also the practical aspect of having a program that can be done anywhere in the world with little to no equipment. If your whole program is based around going to the gym, what do you do when there's no gym? Oh yeah...PRT.
Additionally, the PRT program doesn't "promote" injury. Far from it. Not one single issue that the article raises is a result of PRT, but rather from poor leadership. You can have the best facilities, programs, and training in the world, but without proper leadership, all of it is for naught.
Here is just one example of how Withrow blames the PRT program when he should be calling out leadership for their failure to adhere to the tenets of the program:
Withrow: "there are specific exercises predominately done that are causing muscle imbalances in soldiers and leading to injury. These particular exercises that are overdone are directly related to the Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT), which consists of push-ups, sit-ups, and a two mile run."
FM 7-22: "the primary focus of PRT goes far beyond preparation for the APFT"
"Physical readiness includes all aspects of physical performance and requires training well above that of simple preparation for the APFT"
"PRT sessions are not solely devoted to preparation for the APFT"
"Temporary training periods solely devoted toward meeting APFT requirements are highly discouraged"
The manual also includes a ton of information regarding overtraining/overuse injuries, as well as proper rest, recovery, and nutrition, which addresses many of the issues that he raises.
Additionally, the PRT program doesn't "promote" injury. Far from it. Not one single issue that the article raises is a result of PRT, but rather from poor leadership. You can have the best facilities, programs, and training in the world, but without proper leadership, all of it is for naught.
Here is just one example of how Withrow blames the PRT program when he should be calling out leadership for their failure to adhere to the tenets of the program:
Withrow: "there are specific exercises predominately done that are causing muscle imbalances in soldiers and leading to injury. These particular exercises that are overdone are directly related to the Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT), which consists of push-ups, sit-ups, and a two mile run."
FM 7-22: "the primary focus of PRT goes far beyond preparation for the APFT"
"Physical readiness includes all aspects of physical performance and requires training well above that of simple preparation for the APFT"
"PRT sessions are not solely devoted to preparation for the APFT"
"Temporary training periods solely devoted toward meeting APFT requirements are highly discouraged"
The manual also includes a ton of information regarding overtraining/overuse injuries, as well as proper rest, recovery, and nutrition, which addresses many of the issues that he raises.
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Suspended Profile
What I'm reading is that the average Soldier is not worth the investment of money or time for a good physical fitness program.
You are correct in that a lot of that is in the manual. However, it is not an AR. It does not mandate that Commanders adhere to these principles.
And instead of experts, we get Soldiers with a couple of weeks of training, which is not even remotely enough to fill the role that is needed.
I absolutely put that on the PRT program. The default drills done because proper equipment, facilities, etc are ineffective- both at keeping a soldier in good shape, and for being prepared for the APFT, which the manual repeats.
You are correct in that a lot of that is in the manual. However, it is not an AR. It does not mandate that Commanders adhere to these principles.
And instead of experts, we get Soldiers with a couple of weeks of training, which is not even remotely enough to fill the role that is needed.
I absolutely put that on the PRT program. The default drills done because proper equipment, facilities, etc are ineffective- both at keeping a soldier in good shape, and for being prepared for the APFT, which the manual repeats.
Suspended Profile
All respect to you for completing the training, but honestly, no.
End of the day, MFT's don't have the training to do much outside the FM, which... Is lacking a lot. I've always found it very strange that the Army can certify someone is a master after a couple weeks and do it as an additional duty, when others have this role as a MOS, and civilians go to school for years of training and experience.
And since most units will not have the equipment or gym access to take full advantage of what is in the FM, you'll be left with little choice in your workouts by default- good old CD1, 2, ETC, which are very ineffective.
End of the day, MFT's don't have the training to do much outside the FM, which... Is lacking a lot. I've always found it very strange that the Army can certify someone is a master after a couple weeks and do it as an additional duty, when others have this role as a MOS, and civilians go to school for years of training and experience.
And since most units will not have the equipment or gym access to take full advantage of what is in the FM, you'll be left with little choice in your workouts by default- good old CD1, 2, ETC, which are very ineffective.
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PRT is absolutely effective-- at motivating my peers to keep up their fitness. While my old unit averaged a 290 and everyone passed the 4x:36 and the ruck), we could pretty much do whatever we wanted for PT most days of the week. Some people would do CrossFit, some would lift for hypertrophy, and others like me would prefer swimming and running. That was enough motivation in itself for us to keep up our scores. If PRT was all my future held, I don't think I would be too incredibly moved to put out.
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If it is what we have then it is good. However, I think the PRT should be based on competencies versus standard pushups/situps/waistline etc. What I mean is that I think there should be a combat PRT done twice a year for all services. I don't care that you can knock out 75 pushups or 75 situps or 25 pullups or can run like the wind in shorts and a t shirt. What I care about is are you fit enough to drag my sorry butt out of the line of fire when the poop hits the oscillating device. The Marine Corps CFT is a good start. See the attached link below. Old link but it gives an idea of what is required. If you can do that then you shouldn't have a waist problem and you are Combat Ready.
http://www.military.com/military-fitness/marine-corps-fitness-requirements/marine-corps-combat-fitness-test
http://www.military.com/military-fitness/marine-corps-fitness-requirements/marine-corps-combat-fitness-test
Marine Corps Combat Fitness Test (CFT)
The CFT is intended to keep Marines ready for the physical rigors of contemporary combat operations.
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Army Physical fitness training has always had the same issue.. we training as cohesive units, which is good at team building, accountability, mentorship, leadership and many other good reasons to do it..Its also horrible for physical training in groups. When I went through MFT school the first time, it was said the perfect ability group size was ONE, more then that is a compromise.
Setting a "unit group" PRT intensity and activity level is a compromise, it will lower some SM's physical status, raise some and poorly maintain some. If the unit goal is to bring all SM in the unit to a uniform low standard, PRT works... You can train all to the lowest common intensity level set for those in poor physical shape and not hurt them. Of course all others will suffer.
You can decentralize all SM PT in the morning putting them directly after formation into 6 or more ability groups, lead by a trained and experienced PRT leader.. But Ive never seen a unit leadership willing to do that as a whole...Some will for ability group runs (Slow, Medium, Fast) but not for the entire training session.
Until leadership is willing to decentralize and allow "individual" training in ability groups based solely on .....well ability and needs, not unit, platoon, section, squad integrity PRT and PT in general will remain mediocre at best as an overall physical fitness training plan.
Setting a "unit group" PRT intensity and activity level is a compromise, it will lower some SM's physical status, raise some and poorly maintain some. If the unit goal is to bring all SM in the unit to a uniform low standard, PRT works... You can train all to the lowest common intensity level set for those in poor physical shape and not hurt them. Of course all others will suffer.
You can decentralize all SM PT in the morning putting them directly after formation into 6 or more ability groups, lead by a trained and experienced PRT leader.. But Ive never seen a unit leadership willing to do that as a whole...Some will for ability group runs (Slow, Medium, Fast) but not for the entire training session.
Until leadership is willing to decentralize and allow "individual" training in ability groups based solely on .....well ability and needs, not unit, platoon, section, squad integrity PRT and PT in general will remain mediocre at best as an overall physical fitness training plan.
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SPC Brady Allen
SGM Erik Marquez This is a very intriguing viewpoint and very accurate at that. I understand compromise because everybody is at a different level of fitness, however with this, I have always heard PRT is meant to sustain not to necessarily improve ones PT score dramatically. What is your view on this?
I like your proposal on the six different groups, as with the AGR's and the A,B and C group. I honestly think that if senior leaders selected people that WANTED to be MFT's and not just to fill slots, this would ultimately change the environment in the Unit PT program. What else do you think would help with a unit PT program that is led by an MFT? I think allowing an NCO that is MFT qualified, have full responsibility over the program would help. With full responsibility, I mean put this NCO in Operations and not a line platoon, this way this could be his sole responsibility and put fourth full effort in order to better physical fitness across the board. I say this because in my old unit, they put a squad leader in charge of the PT, but he was our platoon HAZMAT NCO and worked Law Enforcement duties throughout the week. With so many different roles to juggle, how can one expect someone to do every single additional duty successfully?
Thanks for you response, always enjoy reading what you have to say.
I like your proposal on the six different groups, as with the AGR's and the A,B and C group. I honestly think that if senior leaders selected people that WANTED to be MFT's and not just to fill slots, this would ultimately change the environment in the Unit PT program. What else do you think would help with a unit PT program that is led by an MFT? I think allowing an NCO that is MFT qualified, have full responsibility over the program would help. With full responsibility, I mean put this NCO in Operations and not a line platoon, this way this could be his sole responsibility and put fourth full effort in order to better physical fitness across the board. I say this because in my old unit, they put a squad leader in charge of the PT, but he was our platoon HAZMAT NCO and worked Law Enforcement duties throughout the week. With so many different roles to juggle, how can one expect someone to do every single additional duty successfully?
Thanks for you response, always enjoy reading what you have to say.
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The movements might be useful on their own somehow. I just don't see how a "Y Squat" differs from a "W Squat" other than how you hold your arms. This is part of the problem; where you have too many different exercises that no one who does not do PRT exclusively will ever be able to memorize and/or perform correctly. Yeah, there's a manual, but are you really going to read out of the manual while leading the formation? Not realistic. Some of the exercises are just plain silly and complicated. It is these things that turn off many Soldiers. Simplicity wins the day, not doing 100 different variations of exercises that make one look and feel like a clown. Also, what does getting up and going to attention between each exercise really accomplish (physical fitness wise, not discipline) between ground exercises? For example, prone row, get up, attention, bent leg body twist, get down, get up, attention, push-up, get down, get up, attention, etc. Just like everything else Army, there doesn't really seem to be a constructive point to doing some things, and we do them just "because Army, that's why." When you present things like that to junior Soldiers, they are not going to buy into it. It's that simple.
In general, organized group PT really helps no one. While many Soldiers may not know yet what works for them, individual PT is more effective than group PT, as everyone has different levels of fitness, different body types, and conditioning needs. For me, as a 47 year old male, I can get a good weights workout in about 20 minutes. For cardio, I can walk 1-2 miles, do a rowing machine, or use my TreadClimber when I am at home. I get more out of a workout when I am left to my own devices. Doing the same boring PT every day does very little for me, and others in my unit say the same thing. I get that allowing everyone in a unit to do their PT would be really scary for the Army, as they would lose control over that part of the PT picture, but if that were to happen, then the APFT would be the arbiter of who is doing good PT and who is not. Those who want/need guidance on a good PT program will always have it through either knowledgeable NCOs, the MFT that is required by regulations, or through their own research. Those who fail, well, the procedures for that are already in existence. The Army doesn't regulate eating habits, smoking habits, or sleeping habits, why regulate PT habits? Regulating only one part of the equation does nothing. Let adults be responsible for their own PT.
In general, organized group PT really helps no one. While many Soldiers may not know yet what works for them, individual PT is more effective than group PT, as everyone has different levels of fitness, different body types, and conditioning needs. For me, as a 47 year old male, I can get a good weights workout in about 20 minutes. For cardio, I can walk 1-2 miles, do a rowing machine, or use my TreadClimber when I am at home. I get more out of a workout when I am left to my own devices. Doing the same boring PT every day does very little for me, and others in my unit say the same thing. I get that allowing everyone in a unit to do their PT would be really scary for the Army, as they would lose control over that part of the PT picture, but if that were to happen, then the APFT would be the arbiter of who is doing good PT and who is not. Those who want/need guidance on a good PT program will always have it through either knowledgeable NCOs, the MFT that is required by regulations, or through their own research. Those who fail, well, the procedures for that are already in existence. The Army doesn't regulate eating habits, smoking habits, or sleeping habits, why regulate PT habits? Regulating only one part of the equation does nothing. Let adults be responsible for their own PT.
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SGT Tony Clifford
I would add that PRT doesn't seem to be particularly conducive to the APFT. Mission requirements often force soldiers to miss PT. My understanding of PRT before I left the service was that it was a strict regimen that required daily progression and a dietary plan that is impossible to enforce in garrison and impossible to achieve on deployment.
We tried it with an open mind when I was in Korea. After 2 months of PRT the bottom 3rd of the company did experience improvement, however the middle 3rd received no gains and the upper 3rd actually had a decrease. After accessing the program, we were given the low key approval to discontinue PRT, but still had to conduct the warm up exercises to keep the battalion commander and CSM from knowing that we had disregarded it.
We tried it with an open mind when I was in Korea. After 2 months of PRT the bottom 3rd of the company did experience improvement, however the middle 3rd received no gains and the upper 3rd actually had a decrease. After accessing the program, we were given the low key approval to discontinue PRT, but still had to conduct the warm up exercises to keep the battalion commander and CSM from knowing that we had disregarded it.
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WO1 (Join to see)
SGT Tony Clifford - Army PRT does not tell soldiers how to eat. In fact, I have barely seen the word "nutrition" in FM 7-22.
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PRT works if done correctly. The issue is that when the Army puts a program in place there's always those that "know best" and refuse to follow the Army's guidance.
I remember when I was a young PVT, a very wise CSM told us, "we must support the Army"
wouldn't that be nice?
If every one from the top down/bottom up actually followed what's in the regs instead of putting their own little spin on everything.
I remember when I was a young PVT, a very wise CSM told us, "we must support the Army"
wouldn't that be nice?
If every one from the top down/bottom up actually followed what's in the regs instead of putting their own little spin on everything.
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Plus units also not do PT to be able to achieve mission requirements or other miscellaneous taskings.
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