Posted on Jul 7, 2017
Can a commander put an administrative order on a soldier for suicide and label it as a misconduct?
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Suicide
Suicide
Posted >1 y ago
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Interesting question. I'm a bit dated as I punched out in '03. A suicide attempt can certainly be "misconduct" in a technical sense. The real issue is does it make sense? Misconduct which affects mission performance, redirects valuable resources, blah, blah, blah, and you can create a logic train that can go somewhere, nowhere, or down the sewer. From a command perspective, a suicide attempt is just like any other problem. You look to isolate it, reduce the blast perimeter, minimize ancillary impacts to the Command, and move on. People tend to confuse the caring aspect with the business decision aspect. In our culture, we tend to find it's better to care about our people and it tends to support a better business outcome. But caring for an individual is pretty short term when bounced up against caring for everyone in the Command overall in a long term sense.
Bottom line, the path of least resistance, i.e. don't create nonuseful administrative burden, is typically what you'll see. There's a lot of stuff out there that the JAG will say, it's not worth it. Nothing like being the test case that the Washington Post puts on the front page.
Bottom line, the path of least resistance, i.e. don't create nonuseful administrative burden, is typically what you'll see. There's a lot of stuff out there that the JAG will say, it's not worth it. Nothing like being the test case that the Washington Post puts on the front page.
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I remember Article 15s for sunburns which affected duty.....so I could see a suicide attempt being misconduct.
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can he flag or bar - for the duration of the person not being fit for duty - I would say yes - remember, until the person is cleared bt the appropriate medical professionals, this person will not be able to carry, handle any fire arms or weapons - this does effect unit readiness. Naturally, the first concern would be getting the soldier the help they need in order to ensure they are no longer a threat to themselves or others. after that, the Commander must concern themselves with unit readiness and how the person will re intergrate with the unit.
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Serviceman should be referred to medical treatment and determination of fitness for continued service.
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SSG Derrick L. Lewis MBA, C-HRM and SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4", yall got anything for this?
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Not necessarily a suicide but suicide attempt. How are they actually supposed to support their soldier? Any regulations?
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SGM Erik Marquez
PFC (Join to see) "Not necessarily a suicide but suicide attempt. How are they actually supposed to support their soldier?"
Keeping in mind "Supporting the SM" may not be the feel good reality some would prefer.
The Mission is to be ready to deploy the world best fighting force, that mission is incompatible with SM that have personal issues which can not be resolved in the short term with on hand and available resources..
So "Supporting the Service member" may be, providing safe secure care and treatment as they are processed out under a medical chapter and transfered to privet or VA care.
At a minimum I would expect a flag, clearance withdrawn, bar to reenlistment and a mental evaluation required, and then based on that outcome, Treatment plan, MEB, or both.
Im not aware of a regulation that requires an administrative action (chapter, UCMJ, ect) for suicidal ideation's. Or an actual suicide attempt (many times what family and friends call an attempt is classified as in "ideation" )
Standards for medical fitness may cover this well but Im not sure. The laymen can read
"3–31. Disorders with psychotic features
The causes for referral to an MEB are as follows:
a. Diagnosed psychiatric conditions that fail to respond to treatment or restore the Soldier to full function within 1 year of onset of treatment.
b. Mental disorders not secondary to intoxication, infections, toxic, or other organic causes, with gross impairment in reality testing, resulting in interference with social adjustment or with duty performance.
3–32. Mood disorders
The causes for referral to an MEB are as follows:
a. Persistence or recurrence of symptoms sufficient to require extended or recurrent hospitalization; or
b. Persistence or recurrence of symptoms necessitating limitations of duty or duty in protected environment; or
c. Persistence or recurrence of symptoms resulting in interference with effective military performance."
But i don't know what the reality of any of that verbiage has to do with a suicide attempt or ideation.
Keeping in mind "Supporting the SM" may not be the feel good reality some would prefer.
The Mission is to be ready to deploy the world best fighting force, that mission is incompatible with SM that have personal issues which can not be resolved in the short term with on hand and available resources..
So "Supporting the Service member" may be, providing safe secure care and treatment as they are processed out under a medical chapter and transfered to privet or VA care.
At a minimum I would expect a flag, clearance withdrawn, bar to reenlistment and a mental evaluation required, and then based on that outcome, Treatment plan, MEB, or both.
Im not aware of a regulation that requires an administrative action (chapter, UCMJ, ect) for suicidal ideation's. Or an actual suicide attempt (many times what family and friends call an attempt is classified as in "ideation" )
Standards for medical fitness may cover this well but Im not sure. The laymen can read
"3–31. Disorders with psychotic features
The causes for referral to an MEB are as follows:
a. Diagnosed psychiatric conditions that fail to respond to treatment or restore the Soldier to full function within 1 year of onset of treatment.
b. Mental disorders not secondary to intoxication, infections, toxic, or other organic causes, with gross impairment in reality testing, resulting in interference with social adjustment or with duty performance.
3–32. Mood disorders
The causes for referral to an MEB are as follows:
a. Persistence or recurrence of symptoms sufficient to require extended or recurrent hospitalization; or
b. Persistence or recurrence of symptoms necessitating limitations of duty or duty in protected environment; or
c. Persistence or recurrence of symptoms resulting in interference with effective military performance."
But i don't know what the reality of any of that verbiage has to do with a suicide attempt or ideation.
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SCPO Penny Douphinett
SGM Erik Marquez - This is why there is such a high suicide rate in the active duty military! "Keeping in mind "Supporting the SM" may not be the feel good reality some would prefer.
The Mission is to be ready to deploy the world best fighting force, that mission is incompatible with SM that have personal issues which can not be resolved in the short term with on hand and available resources..
So "Supporting the Service member" may be, providing safe secure care and treatment as they are processed out under a medical chapter and transfered to privet or VA care. At a minimum I would expect a flag, clearance withdrawn, bar to reenlistment and a mental evaluation required, and then based on that outcome, Treatment plan, MEB, or both."
This is a load of crap and it is not directed at you SGM. Unless you are forward deployed, there is no excuse for a command to not support the member - and until we do sailors/ marines/soldiers and airman will continue to die at alarming rates and the military will continue to throw their collective hands in the air not understanding why it is happening. By the time a member gets to a suicide attempt, their illness is far advanced and treatment should have begun long ago. Sailors don't go for treatment because they fear "a flag, clearance withdrawn, bar to reenlistment and a mental evaluation required, and then based on that outcome, Treatment plan, MEB, or both." We have people dying because they won't go to medical and get a 5 cent a day pill because of antiquated ideas about mental illness. Being depressed does not mean your clearance needs to be pulled if it it being treated, yet that is what often happens, which leads sailors to not get treatment which leads to suicide. I seem to be talking in circles? That is because this whole problem goes around in circles and is maddening!
Self-disclosure as some of you know my son, MMN2 Benjamin Demers, USN died by suicide, September 18, 2016. He suffered from depression and would not go to medical on his ship for treatment because his clearance would be pulled; if you are a nuke you can't work without a clearance which would have worsened his depression. This is the antiquated response to mental health of which I speak. I am also a licensed clinical social worker and know treated/managed depression is no bar to the work my son did. The suicide rate in the nuke community is incredibly high and it is the same story over and over. A nuclear aircraft carrier in port or at sea has the resources to support these men and women; it has the medication and counseling personnel they need to remain healthy and at their posts, utilizing the 2 years of schooling which costs more than a half million dolllars each.
I haven't served on a post or base that doesn't have those resources either. Again, I'm not talking about being forward deployed!
The Mission is to be ready to deploy the world best fighting force, that mission is incompatible with SM that have personal issues which can not be resolved in the short term with on hand and available resources..
So "Supporting the Service member" may be, providing safe secure care and treatment as they are processed out under a medical chapter and transfered to privet or VA care. At a minimum I would expect a flag, clearance withdrawn, bar to reenlistment and a mental evaluation required, and then based on that outcome, Treatment plan, MEB, or both."
This is a load of crap and it is not directed at you SGM. Unless you are forward deployed, there is no excuse for a command to not support the member - and until we do sailors/ marines/soldiers and airman will continue to die at alarming rates and the military will continue to throw their collective hands in the air not understanding why it is happening. By the time a member gets to a suicide attempt, their illness is far advanced and treatment should have begun long ago. Sailors don't go for treatment because they fear "a flag, clearance withdrawn, bar to reenlistment and a mental evaluation required, and then based on that outcome, Treatment plan, MEB, or both." We have people dying because they won't go to medical and get a 5 cent a day pill because of antiquated ideas about mental illness. Being depressed does not mean your clearance needs to be pulled if it it being treated, yet that is what often happens, which leads sailors to not get treatment which leads to suicide. I seem to be talking in circles? That is because this whole problem goes around in circles and is maddening!
Self-disclosure as some of you know my son, MMN2 Benjamin Demers, USN died by suicide, September 18, 2016. He suffered from depression and would not go to medical on his ship for treatment because his clearance would be pulled; if you are a nuke you can't work without a clearance which would have worsened his depression. This is the antiquated response to mental health of which I speak. I am also a licensed clinical social worker and know treated/managed depression is no bar to the work my son did. The suicide rate in the nuke community is incredibly high and it is the same story over and over. A nuclear aircraft carrier in port or at sea has the resources to support these men and women; it has the medication and counseling personnel they need to remain healthy and at their posts, utilizing the 2 years of schooling which costs more than a half million dolllars each.
I haven't served on a post or base that doesn't have those resources either. Again, I'm not talking about being forward deployed!
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SGM Erik Marquez
SCPO Penny Douphinett - Sorry for your loss.
I believe it may have made you unable to see the reality that was posted..
." SCPO Penny Douphinett stated Unless you are forward deployed, there is no excuse for a command to not support the member "
You have a personal bias, indirectly i do to, having lost one of my SM in combat to suicide while on patrol, and a near suicide in garrison post deployment (shot himself in the head from under the chin.,,but did not die)
And what I describe as the harsh reality of having only THE BEST, fittest mentally and physically serving our nations military does include the harsh reality of supporting the SM by way of "Supporting the Service member" may be, providing safe secure care and treatment as they are processed out under a medical chapter and transfered to privet or VA care."
I never said kick them out with no support, never said skip diagnostic attempts and short term treatment and I never said no support after medically discharging..
I did say that it is not a "feel good" solution but feeling good is not the task, building and maintaining a fighting force is, and mental instability that can not be addressed in the short term is incompatible with military service. And I stand by that opinion now, did when i was in and used it to end effect, and would again.
Im sorry if you get pancreatic cancer, but as such I wish you well in your treatment while being discharged and after...If you can not train, deploy and fight now or in the near term (and thats a squishy time line based on the Docs prognosis ..if they can get you better in a year, sure, why not, if they can get you better in three, ok..if they can not say if or when you might ever get better, its time to go)
Im sorry if you have some other disease be it physical or mental that can not be cured and you brought back to fulfill your obligation, serve in the capacity you were contracted to do, or an alternate one if so capable (Infantry Amputees, 88M with PTSD, EOD Tech that has no left arm but can train a PV1 how to not be an IED combat injury tomorrow, and yes, even a 76Y that has clinical depression, but with help, with medds that bring balance and competent behavior continue to serve filing vital roles they are capable of doing with professionalism and ability..these are not hand outs, these are strong SM's that adapt and overcome to continue serving, as long as there is a valid spot to fill and they are capable, let them serve..but such slots are limited, and such strong individuals and available treatment not always compatible with jobs available...and thus, they, though not a "feel good" resolution but be separated medically and supported as a former service member so that their unit slot may be filled with a fully ready member to train, deploy and fight another day..such is the needs of the service, such is the army creed. And SCPO Penny Douphinett I'd guess the Navy believes in selfless service as well, works to build a strong fighting force with only the best they can recruit and for the sake of the Navy as a whole, feels strongly that as harsh as it me "feel" incompatibility to fulfill a needed, valid role means supporting that Seaman by "providing safe secure care and treatment as they are processed out under a medical chapter and transfered to privet or VA care."
I believe it may have made you unable to see the reality that was posted..
." SCPO Penny Douphinett stated Unless you are forward deployed, there is no excuse for a command to not support the member "
You have a personal bias, indirectly i do to, having lost one of my SM in combat to suicide while on patrol, and a near suicide in garrison post deployment (shot himself in the head from under the chin.,,but did not die)
And what I describe as the harsh reality of having only THE BEST, fittest mentally and physically serving our nations military does include the harsh reality of supporting the SM by way of "Supporting the Service member" may be, providing safe secure care and treatment as they are processed out under a medical chapter and transfered to privet or VA care."
I never said kick them out with no support, never said skip diagnostic attempts and short term treatment and I never said no support after medically discharging..
I did say that it is not a "feel good" solution but feeling good is not the task, building and maintaining a fighting force is, and mental instability that can not be addressed in the short term is incompatible with military service. And I stand by that opinion now, did when i was in and used it to end effect, and would again.
Im sorry if you get pancreatic cancer, but as such I wish you well in your treatment while being discharged and after...If you can not train, deploy and fight now or in the near term (and thats a squishy time line based on the Docs prognosis ..if they can get you better in a year, sure, why not, if they can get you better in three, ok..if they can not say if or when you might ever get better, its time to go)
Im sorry if you have some other disease be it physical or mental that can not be cured and you brought back to fulfill your obligation, serve in the capacity you were contracted to do, or an alternate one if so capable (Infantry Amputees, 88M with PTSD, EOD Tech that has no left arm but can train a PV1 how to not be an IED combat injury tomorrow, and yes, even a 76Y that has clinical depression, but with help, with medds that bring balance and competent behavior continue to serve filing vital roles they are capable of doing with professionalism and ability..these are not hand outs, these are strong SM's that adapt and overcome to continue serving, as long as there is a valid spot to fill and they are capable, let them serve..but such slots are limited, and such strong individuals and available treatment not always compatible with jobs available...and thus, they, though not a "feel good" resolution but be separated medically and supported as a former service member so that their unit slot may be filled with a fully ready member to train, deploy and fight another day..such is the needs of the service, such is the army creed. And SCPO Penny Douphinett I'd guess the Navy believes in selfless service as well, works to build a strong fighting force with only the best they can recruit and for the sake of the Navy as a whole, feels strongly that as harsh as it me "feel" incompatibility to fulfill a needed, valid role means supporting that Seaman by "providing safe secure care and treatment as they are processed out under a medical chapter and transfered to privet or VA care."
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SCPO Penny Douphinett
It is easy to push my comments off as personal bias, but I felt this way when I served. The point being to many of our people fear getting the help they need when there are small things in their lives because they fear totally outsized repercussions which are totally unnecessary and do not support the mission. If and when Petty Officer Jones began feeling down she had been able to go to medical to get evaluated, put on an anti-depressant, received short term counseling while she continued to work, the Navy would retain a vaulable asset who would over time become a senior enlisted who knew to look out for her people. Instead, she goes to medical and never returns to the department, the others learn to not ask for help. Thus, their small depression becomes full-blown and they are now a liability and a loss. This is common sense personnel management when you have a true understanding of mental illness. You would not discourage people from going to medical until their cough is pneumonia, if you did, you are a poor leader who should be the one put out of the military. This isn't about feeling good or hand holding, this is about utilizing resources. When I was a first class, I had a young man working for me who was displaying clear signs, we got him the help he needed, he came back to work. This is how it should work, not instilling so much fear our people would rather kill themselves. We all spend many, many hours in mandatory training, yet in the 2 cases I was involved with while serving and yes, in my son's, all had confided they were suicidal to another servicemember who chose to do nothing. I believe the other 2 Sailors and my son are responsible for their actions. I also believe, in the military, these others need to be held responsible for their lack of action. Otherwise, why do we bother training. I know, it's easy to push off my thoughts, I'm biased.
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