Posted on Mar 19, 2016
Can a CSM deny orders for a leadership school such as BLC or ALC just because you don't get a 70 in each PT event?
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I'm sure they can deny an extra school like air assault but I feel like as long as you meet the army standard of 60 in each event he can't deny a leadership school and halt your career
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 167
Well if that E4 wants to make E5, why are they are a minimum standard looking to excel. They should be doing something to improve themselves physically and mentally. If they can't manage their fitness in garrison, how while they perform in a combat zone. We may be drawn down but stuff happens and you can find yourself back in the sandbox or on a 10,000 mountain looking at the other 3,000 feet above you. So yeah, the CSM will and should hold them back.
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The short of it is, Most Soldiers that score 70 in each event have a hard time passing a APFT at the school house, the school house scores to standard and most units give there Soldiers the benefit of the doubt on exercises. It is to your benefit that you score higher and do not fail PT test at an NCOES. So just work harder and you will get there.
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Ok. I am twisted here. I guess I always achieved to exceed the standard. If you wanna go and merely strive to meet the standard 60 in each event thats on you. Just know there are better Soldiers who deserve that slot.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SSG Jesse Cheadle - there are no more local OMLs for ALC/SLC. You are directed/selected by DA to attend. If you aren't flagged, you're determined to be eligible. Non-attendance requires memos/documentation from chain-of-command to delete/defer attesting to your current ineligibility.
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SSG Jesse Cheadle
Maybe thats for the better. Not sure how I feel about DA dictating NCOES attendance. But, that someone elses show now. I just sit back and ignite/extinguish fires. Have a great day CSM Maynard.
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As the Army saying goes you can add to but you can't take away from the regulations. Regulation states that 60 in each event is passing. But Commanders can enforce their own policy that states you must achieve a 70 in each event in order to attend NCOES. I personally agree with 70 for each event. I have seen Soldiers go to WLC barely passing their 2 mile run but they always passed. They get to WLC and have a bad day and fail by seconds. So to prevent this from happening the 70 point rule is enforced. Unless you have medical limitations a 70 in each event is not unreachable with a little work. And it saves you from potential getting a Marginal on your 1059.
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They can deny anything they want. But that would mean it's either personal or they are just being a prick! ( IMO)
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Looking at the Prerequisites for attendance for Maneuver SLC. If a Solider fails the APFT (twice) they are removed from the course. The consequences of being are outlined in the hyperlink. Now a soldier who earns 60 points on each event passes the APFT according to regulations, but is that Soldier, especially a NCO living the Creed and Army Values? I would argue that the CSM is this instance is exercising excellent judgment in not allowing this NCO to attend PME until that NCO demonstrates "excellence in Physical Fitness" and not just enough to meet the standard.
On a personal note, once upon a time when I was a PLDC instructor, ever Soldier who showed up to attend the 101ST NCOA had "passed the APFT" within 30 days of attending. The APFT failure rate was so high, that we had a vide camera operator standing by. A grader would signal a Senior Instructor who would stand next to the grade and observe. If needed the senior would signal the video camera operator who would video the soldier performing the Push Ups and or Sit-ups. If the Soldier failed the APFT, the video was shown the PLDC 1SG. It was an unbelievable set of checks and balances, but the amount of APFT failures from Soldiers who had "passed the APFT recently" was equally unbelievable.
Just my perspective from my Mortar Pit.
** ATRRS Prerequisites and consequences for failing the APFT**
https://www.atrrs.army.mil/atrrscc/prerequisites.aspx?fy=2014&sch=698&crs=0-11%2F19-C46&phase=1&cls=003&clsflag=&startDate=2014-03-04&endDate=2014-04-07
On a personal note, once upon a time when I was a PLDC instructor, ever Soldier who showed up to attend the 101ST NCOA had "passed the APFT" within 30 days of attending. The APFT failure rate was so high, that we had a vide camera operator standing by. A grader would signal a Senior Instructor who would stand next to the grade and observe. If needed the senior would signal the video camera operator who would video the soldier performing the Push Ups and or Sit-ups. If the Soldier failed the APFT, the video was shown the PLDC 1SG. It was an unbelievable set of checks and balances, but the amount of APFT failures from Soldiers who had "passed the APFT recently" was equally unbelievable.
Just my perspective from my Mortar Pit.
** ATRRS Prerequisites and consequences for failing the APFT**
https://www.atrrs.army.mil/atrrscc/prerequisites.aspx?fy=2014&sch=698&crs=0-11%2F19-C46&phase=1&cls=003&clsflag=&startDate=2014-03-04&endDate=2014-04-07
The information presented on this web site can not be reused, copied, duplicated, or distributed for non-ATRRS purposes without written permission from Military Personnel Management (DAPE-MPT), HQDA Army G-1, U.S. Army. This page was generated on 08:56:16 on 22-March-2016 from data provided by Army Training Requirements and Resources System (ATRRS).
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CSM Mike Maynard
SFC Chris Crossley - so, if 60/60/60 NCO isn't living the Creed and/or Army Values, why wouldn't the Army already have a standard for NCOs that exemplifies this in order to eliminate all those NCOs that meet the current standard?
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SFC Chris Crossley
CSM Maynard, In my opinion, the answer in no.
I have often asked the question are we using the standard as a noun or adjective? One measures a level of quality in attainment. The other is used or accepted as normal or average. Is average an acceptable level of performance for the backbone of the Army? Im no referring to what the Army Regulations says you need to maintain in order to continue to serve on the Army.
The army standard is exactly that. the 60/60/60 is the minimum score to pass the APFT. Just like shooting 23/40 it the minimum score n order to qualify with ones rifle. Merely passing the APFT to me does not meet to me the criteria living up to the creed of the NCO. Let me put it this way, if SFC Crossley is a 60/60/60 NCO and my Soldiers know this, how can I provide purpose, motivation and direction for them to be anything other than what I am, a 60/60/60 Soldier?
I have often asked the question are we using the standard as a noun or adjective? One measures a level of quality in attainment. The other is used or accepted as normal or average. Is average an acceptable level of performance for the backbone of the Army? Im no referring to what the Army Regulations says you need to maintain in order to continue to serve on the Army.
The army standard is exactly that. the 60/60/60 is the minimum score to pass the APFT. Just like shooting 23/40 it the minimum score n order to qualify with ones rifle. Merely passing the APFT to me does not meet to me the criteria living up to the creed of the NCO. Let me put it this way, if SFC Crossley is a 60/60/60 NCO and my Soldiers know this, how can I provide purpose, motivation and direction for them to be anything other than what I am, a 60/60/60 Soldier?
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SFC Clark Adams
So you are going to say the TMP NCO, MEDDAC NCO are expected to be on the level of the 3/325 PIR NCO? I thought that's what the DA Standard was meant to be!!!!
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Yes he can. And really he's not doing it cause he doesn't think it'll shine upon the battalion good or anything like it, it's more of he wants to ensure you'll pass your APFT at the school and perform well. He doesn't want to send someone and then they find themselves out of the school cause they couldn't pass the APFT.
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CSM Mike Maynard
MSG Mark Nesgoda - You want an Army full of NCOs that have to be saved from themselves? Why not enact policies that ensure we retain only the best?
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MSG Mark Nesgoda
Morning CSM, must not have made myself clear if you got that I want the Army "full" of NCOs that need to be saved. First if you are not 250 or better as a NCO your wrong. If as a NCO you are heading to a school , you should be aiming to max everything and graduate at the top, not just making it.
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