Posted on Mar 19, 2016
SFC(P) Supervisory Supply Technician
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I'm sure they can deny an extra school like air assault but I feel like as long as you meet the army standard of 60 in each event he can't deny a leadership school and halt your career
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SGT(P) Human Resources Specialist
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School APFT are generally very strict. So he may feel that at schools standard you may not pass, which will not be fun for you. I would not go to a school unless I had 70 in each event as well.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
10 y
SGT(P) (Join to see) - these are DA directed/selected schools. NCOs do not have the option of not attending because they don't have the APFT score they want to have. Bottom-line, better be ready at all times
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SFC James Valero
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Your CSM did you a favor. Your CSM saved us some valuable taxpayer dollars. Your CSM is trying to motivate you. Well according to regs you are correct. However if you can only deliver >60% now... where will you be in 5 or 10 years. But if I have a SPC who gives no less than 90% and works like an excellent SPC rather than an average NCO, that SPC is whom I send to Sergeant School (Yeah I went back that far) I've seen at least a few chapters break down in tears, because they'll never make SGT/E-5 due to whatever reason. To me that shows a lack of contingency and preparation. You are asking your chain of command to take a gamble on you. So you can have the odds be 60% or 90%. Bottom Line: When you arrive to in process BLC/ALC/SLC you will take an APFT, that is the standard.
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MSG Mechanic 2nd
MSG (Join to see)
10 y
thank you for that comment its dead nuts
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
10 y
SFC James Valero - the CSM also ensured that we are retaining marginal Soldiers instead of sending them and putting the onus on them to exceed the standards. We allow these marginals to linger in our units and affect other Soldiers - send them and if they fail, it'll be easier to pick out the folks we want to QSP.
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1SG Chuck Scroggins
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Stay ready, so you don't have to get ready. How would you like to be under the leadership of an NCO who only cares if you meet the minimum? If that's the standard you've set for yourself and your Soldiers, then move over and let someone else lead from the front. "Attitude reflects Leadership"!!!
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SFC Kim Armstrong
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This is not so. Fore if you meet the requirements of the Army and the school you should be able to go. Remember that the Bn Commander signs all documents yay or nay though they do take the recommendation of the CSM . Utilize the open door policy.
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SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint
SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint
>1 y
You are right, maybe we should let the minimum paraformers be allowed to attend the school they desire. I think they should take an APFT at the school, and if they fail it, they pay for the TDY cost and flight cost. That is how you incentivize soldiers who have the goal of minimum standards. They pay$$$
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CPT Pedro Meza
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A CSM represent the highest NCO rank which was earned through BLC and ALC and others, the CSM has every right to ensure that a higher quality of person continues on that path, especially when it is an easy requirement of higher PT score. Run Forrest Gump run..
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MSG Mechanic 2nd
MSG (Join to see)
10 y
well said thank you sir
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SGT Mark Sullivan
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IT's going to be at the discretion of the CSM. If the soldier does everything half-assed, then the command will certainly know, and not want to send said soldier to a leadership school. But, if the soldier has proven his or herself to be knowledgeable, proficient, and a hard charger, then it shouldn't be a problem. Again, it should be at the CSM's discretion. Case in point, myself, I never maxed the PT test, but I always gave it my 110% best, I was technically and tactically proficient, I went to PLDC, now called Warriors course, and passed with flying colors. When I went to BNCOC, came TDY en-route from Korea, not able to acclimatize, but still passed the PT test, my room-mate, came from Ft Bliss, arrived on a Firday before BNCOC started, partied the entire weekend and failed the PT test miserably, including height and weight. Needless to say his CSM, 1SG, and PLT SGT weren't happy when he called and told them.
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
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So, let's do this in the logical way, shall we? The legitimate answer to your question is NO, a CSM cannot deny orders because you didn't meet some superficial number he imposed.
Now, let's take a look at what is required and what is trending Army wide, and why CSM's are putting these sort of 'restrictions' on your school.
1. 60 in each event is all that is required
1a. Even with the minimum requirement, NCO's are failing the school APFT. This no longer is reason to remove a student from the course, but it will send you home with a marginal 1059, which you may as well just figure out what to do next in your life, because you'll likely hit the next QMP/QSP board selection.
2. When you go to an NCOES school and you fail your PT test, your CSM will get a direct phone call from the SMA to explain why he let a soldier attend the school and end up in situation 1a above. No CSM I know wants to have that conversation with SMA, hense, he makes you have a little wiggle room so he gets the warm and fuzzy you won't fuck it up when you get there.
3. As a leader in the Army, why in the world are you not able to achieve a simple 210 on the APFT, and why is this a topic of discussion amongst those who are supposed to set an example for the younger soldiers?
4. If your goals include being able to maintain or barely achieve the minimum standards, you need to reconsider your line of work and the values of this institution. Take a few moments and reflect upon your time as a soldier, dreaming of being in that leadership role.....did it ever once cross your mind that you wanted to be the leader that barely scraped by, or did you as the young soldier resent those above you who could barely achieve the minimum standards and how effective were they as a leader to you? I don't know too many grown men who wake up each day thinking that they are happy with being marginal.
There is no need to think I personally score a 300 or 300+, or to think that I preach the idea that PT defines you as a leader, but the reality is that I have yet to ever see or hear about an amazing or effective leader who barely achieves the minimum standard. If you do even the littlest bit of organized PT with your unit, scoring a 240-250-260 is not that unfair to ask of any soldier.

Maybe instead of asking why minimum isn't good enough, maybe you should be asking yourself why you are accepting the minimum as good enough. Strengthen the NCO corps, young SGT, do not allow yourself to be a part of the problem.
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MSG Mechanic 2nd
MSG (Join to see)
10 y
excellent post lead by example i think i just got a warm and fuzzey
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
10 y
SFC (Join to see) Why would a CSM "protect" a marginal Soldier by allowing him to hang out at the unit instead of attending NCOES. These kind of policies are the ones that retain marginal Soldiers and when DA comes a knocking for QSP, they miss selecting them and get one of our exceeding standards Soldiers. Let's help out DA by sending folks and letting them self-identify by being marginal at NCOES.
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
SFC (Join to see)
10 y
CSM Mike Maynard - I do not disagree with what your vision is, or your method. I also am not in the position to go against a CSM who does impose these types of requirements. I've been in units that operate both ways, based on the views/opinions of the man in charge. I'm certainly not a 'yes man', but when the BN CSM puts out NCOES guidance and operates a 'pre-school APFT' with his own personal overview, it most certainly puts us PSGs in a difficult position. The words I spoke above are only from my experiences working in and around both types of systems, noting that even the one with a 'screening' process really shouldn't be of a legitimate concern for anyone wearing stripes. Hope that helps clarify my words.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
10 y
SFC (Join to see) - annnnnnnnnd roger. I hear you. I know exactly what you're saying and it definitely does put 1SGs/PSGs in a bad position as you should be loyal to the Support Channel and bucking up against a CSMs "policies / pet peeves" can be detrimental. Tread carefully, our job as senior CSMs and CSM mentors is to educate them to alleviate these types of issues.
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MSG Jimmie Mark
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No he can't stop an individual from going to those required school, the CSM just want to look out for that Soldier.The schools tend to grade harder than your battle buddies at home station.....if that NCO fail the Soldier is going to get counseled and depending on the NCO possible separation in today's Army.
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CPT Jeff Reichardt
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I was an NCO for 24 years before I became an officer. I would suggest that this soldier needs an attitude adjustment. Passing PT isn't enough in my book to go to any leadership course. Especially if there are only a few slots for these schools.
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SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint
SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint
>1 y
SSgt Joseph Baptist - Why do you defend barely passing? Edge of standard? Do you like ice cream cones that are barely cold? Shrimp that is almost cooked?
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SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint
SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint
>1 y
SSgt Joseph Baptist - I agree with you. I think everyone should max the PT test...that should be the goal. You fail, you have something to work for. Do you think you would qualify for special units? Do you think you should be in a special unit where people have to depend on you to be the best?
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SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint
SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint
>1 y
SSgt Joseph Baptist - Glad you reported it. I know from my experience there is no need or requirement for the IG to report results to the person who reported an incident. It just does not work that way, there is no need for the reporting solider to know. FYI...you like my PFC rank....figure out how I became a SSG twice. :)
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SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint
SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint
>1 y
SSgt Joseph Baptist - Sometimes it is possible to see change, sometimes you do not know what change to look for.... There are many outcomes possible, and you may not see a counselling of a leader that does not change the standards. I think it is hard to see all the various changes.
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MSG Clark Shumway
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Yes he can. It's a stupid move on his/her part and a sign of a piss poor leader. You as a leader should always give your troops the chance to excel and improve them selves.
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