Posted on Mar 19, 2016
Can a CSM deny orders for a leadership school such as BLC or ALC just because you don't get a 70 in each PT event?
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I'm sure they can deny an extra school like air assault but I feel like as long as you meet the army standard of 60 in each event he can't deny a leadership school and halt your career
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 167
What is the real reason? Is it because 60 isnt good enough for him, because thats the wrong answer. Is it because he is worried that statistically NCO Schools grade harder on a PT test and you may fail at the school? If its the second reason, possible talk with the CSM and assure him/her you know the risks, and are sure you will pass. If its the first reason, IG or Article 138.
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SFC Olivero Rodriguez
If the soldiers is complaining about the CSM directives right now, would you send him to a higher school just because, if all NCO's think the way you do, there will be a failing army. that soldier will go agains you on all commands since he thinks, the regulations should be on his side. Get fit, if you want to be a leader.
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SSG (Join to see)
I have had and seen toxic leaders who score 300 on a pt test, and some of the best leaders ever who scored a 201.
The Army, and NCO academy set the standard for a reason. Its not anyone elses place to over ride that standard. This Soldier who maybe gets a 201 on a PT test could be an amazing NCO but is being denied the opertunity to attend a mandated school for the next rank just because of a few sit ups. If the Soldier fails the NCO school PT test, well thats a HUGE hit to their career, and as i mentioned a good CSM would warn them about that.
The Army, and NCO academy set the standard for a reason. Its not anyone elses place to over ride that standard. This Soldier who maybe gets a 201 on a PT test could be an amazing NCO but is being denied the opertunity to attend a mandated school for the next rank just because of a few sit ups. If the Soldier fails the NCO school PT test, well thats a HUGE hit to their career, and as i mentioned a good CSM would warn them about that.
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Most schools I am aware require you pass the PT Test however if the new school required challenges I would prepare for more than just a passing score.
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Yes they can due to if they feel that you as a soldier a representative of your unit and or battalion fails any event there at the unit level or at any leadership school, the CSM will talk to your leadership and tell them not to send any soldier that cannot represent unit or battalion in the way you should as an NCO
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CSM Mike Maynard
SSG Jack Dryburgh - so, now CSMs are leading based on how they "feel" instead of enforcing standards?
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SSG Jack Dryburgh
No that is not what I said CSM Maynard , and yes they do enforce the standard , they will not approve a solider who is not worthy to attend any school and they will talk to the command, because the commander goes by what the CSM or higher tells them if they have a substandard spc or NCO would u want them to represent your battalion no I don't think so.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SSG Jack Dryburgh - here we go again, "worthy" - what does that mean? Does that mean the same to everyone? Nope. So here we go again with vague, arbitrary unstandard "standards". DA selects/directs NCOs to attend NCOES. If they aren't flagged, they are deemed qualified, end of story.
So, now CSMs cherry-pick folks to attend schools because they are concerned with the reputation of the battalion? How about force everyone to go so we can get an accurate assessment of the battalion and not the cherry-picked reputation.
So, now CSMs cherry-pick folks to attend schools because they are concerned with the reputation of the battalion? How about force everyone to go so we can get an accurate assessment of the battalion and not the cherry-picked reputation.
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With today's soft Army, who knows. When I went to PLDC, our BN CSM required 75% on each category of the PT test or you disn't go. Period. It was right after Christmas break, and I maxxed pu/su, but only scored a 71 on my run. Was told to either take another PT test two days later, or I couldn't go. I took another and stopped at 80% on pu/su, and scored a 79 on my run. That 239 got me into PLDC over my 271, where I received Distinguished Honor Grad. Felt like throwing that cert at the CSM and telling him this is what you almost cost me and this BN!!
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MSG (Join to see)
thats your csm's fault, 271 great, i havent been a good runner myself especially after 4 knee surguries, but could to pu/su all day long, so what needs to happen is some common sense, went to whiskey transition school class leader and honor grad, then cmast, agian the same, done with one it should also be done with others, take what happened to you as a learning experience and us it in your career it will make you a better leader in the long run, know your sm's know their abillities and then decide
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CSM Mike Maynard
SSG (Join to see) - You are correct, PLDC is still a local OML and commands can set criteria to determine OML (like APFT). ALC/SLC are not local OML. They are DA and DA has determined passing the APFT is qualified.
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Guess my question is as a NCO and a leader of Soldiers why don't you want to get more than 70 in each event. You should be leading your Soldiers by example and striving for the best. And really 70 isn't that hard...it just calls for a little heart and effort.
Sounds like your CSM is trying to protect you from failing. I graded many PT test some for NCOA, I grade to standard...which usually means if you only do your do your minimum and you get any wrong you are screwed. Common mistakes (arms not parallel with the ground, even though your belly touches or not going all the way up...half up all the way down) (butt bouncing on sit-ups or fingers not interlaced). These are things that if you don't do right and you fail good luck enjoy your assassinated career.
Sounds like your CSM is trying to protect you from failing. I graded many PT test some for NCOA, I grade to standard...which usually means if you only do your do your minimum and you get any wrong you are screwed. Common mistakes (arms not parallel with the ground, even though your belly touches or not going all the way up...half up all the way down) (butt bouncing on sit-ups or fingers not interlaced). These are things that if you don't do right and you fail good luck enjoy your assassinated career.
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Well considering the Chain of Command is now getting Letters of Reprimand if a soldier fails weight and tape or the PT test at a NCOES school I as a leader would push back when a soldier goes to these schools until I can ensure they won't fail. As a leader you shouldn't be anywhere near the minimum standard. As long as you are capable and able not striving to be on top shows lack of drive and initiative. The Army needs competence and top performers..
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CSM Mike Maynard
SSG (Join to see) - you hit the nail on the head as to why leaders enact policies like this. They aren't for the benefit of the Soldier, they are to cover their ass. That's why giving LoRs to leaders (if they have done their due diligence) is wrong and ensures that we "protect" marginal Soldiers by not allowing them to go and be exposed.
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Simple answer. Yes.
Through my 30 year career I was an instructor in PLDC, BNOC and ANOC. THESE COURSES ARE NOT A RIGHT. THEY ARE A PRIVILEGE.
Through my 30 year career I was an instructor in PLDC, BNOC and ANOC. THESE COURSES ARE NOT A RIGHT. THEY ARE A PRIVILEGE.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CPT Jeff Reichardt - times have changed. These courses are now a requirement, not a privilege. DA selects/directs NCOs to attend. They are deemed eligible if they are not flagged.
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CPT Jeff Reichardt
CSM Mike Maynard - you are correct Sargent Major. but we all know, that any soldier can be flagged for almost anything almost any day.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CPT Jeff Reichardt - Negative sir, there is a specific list of things that Soldiers can be flagged for, but now BARS - you can bar someone for almost anything.
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It is a little harder question than "can". A CSM has to ask himself and the Service Member not if he CAN go but SHOULD he go?
I don't care if I am on the carpet for you failing and you did nothing and you ruining your career but I refuse being on that carpet for me being complacent and fail to do everything I can to help you succeed. Sometimes that is test, reevaluate, retest and even make that hard decision.
If you are going to an NCOES to continue your career wouldn't you want to make sure that it wasn't stage where you ruined it? If you want to go but planning to get out anyway then I will tell you "No" and get you removed from eligibility so that school seat can be filled by someone who wants to continue can.
I don't care if I am on the carpet for you failing and you did nothing and you ruining your career but I refuse being on that carpet for me being complacent and fail to do everything I can to help you succeed. Sometimes that is test, reevaluate, retest and even make that hard decision.
If you are going to an NCOES to continue your career wouldn't you want to make sure that it wasn't stage where you ruined it? If you want to go but planning to get out anyway then I will tell you "No" and get you removed from eligibility so that school seat can be filled by someone who wants to continue can.
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