Posted on Mar 19, 2016
Can a CSM deny orders for a leadership school such as BLC or ALC just because you don't get a 70 in each PT event?
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I'm sure they can deny an extra school like air assault but I feel like as long as you meet the army standard of 60 in each event he can't deny a leadership school and halt your career
Posted in these groups: 
CSM
Basic Leaders Course (BLC formerly WLC PLDC)
Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC)
NCOES
CSM Basic Leaders Course (BLC formerly WLC PLDC) Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC) NCOES
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 167
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The correct answer is no but it needs to be understood that such Soldiers stand a chance of failing as standards at NCOES are tougher and a failure is a quick way out of the military.
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Yes the CSM can deny an NCOES course for a boarder line Soldier. Many of the NCOES courses are led by "alpha dog" type NCO's who are really hard on the grading process for the APFT. If a Soldier barely passed the pre-execution diagnostic at the unit he/ she is most likely to have issues with passing with the more stringent grading that is normal at NCOES courses. Most CSM initiate a 70,70, 70 policy to give the Soldiers a little cushion due to harder grading. It may seem to be wrong but I think you would be better off working a little harder to achieve the 70 in each event verses being sent home from NCOES for a failed APFT.
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It's hard to get ahead in the new Army. No schools, no moving up. Go to the IG. Or start pumping iron.
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I think they can and should.
1. If they are borderline they might get a really strict grader and fail once they get there.
2. An NCO with a minimum test is a borderline performer anyway. Why are we promoting and sending NCOES to school who do just enough to get by.?
1. If they are borderline they might get a really strict grader and fail once they get there.
2. An NCO with a minimum test is a borderline performer anyway. Why are we promoting and sending NCOES to school who do just enough to get by.?
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CSM Mike Maynard
SSG Lon Watson - that is exactly why we should send them. If they go and fail, they will not get promoted, receive a less than favorable NCOER and will not be able to continue service. The alternative is to not let them attend and allow their marginal'ness infect the rest of the force.
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SSG Lon Watson
I see your point. But don't unit CSMs get penalized when NCOs go to school and fail. I think you're right, I just wouldn't want a unit to get in trouble. I'm so tired of people doing just enough to get by.
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Many units believe if you get more than the minimum shows more leadership ability, or at least a pride in doing more, strong work ethic etc.. and yes I have known many CSM's who have denied Soldiers to go to leadership school because they don't try hard enough. In today's Army there isn't room for Soldiers just to meet the minimum, with all the cut backs I worked hard to stay in the Army because in the 90's there was a large number of reductions in Soldiers and many units disbanded, you had to find a home for your self and prove yourself to stay in.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SFC Nyla Newville - so, who gets decide then what "more" is? Can you see how local policies like this can be unevenly and unequally applied across the force allowing some to go and some not to go. Just doesn't seem fair when there is a DA standard on whether you meet the qualifications to attend.
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SFC Nyla Newville
As you know the facts, if a unit is deciding who to send money maybe a issue, as a long time Reservist I have seen units only have so much money to spend on schools.
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My first and foremost thought was, yes. He can. He looks out to ensure that Soldier will be succesfful. My issue though: Why do I want a leader barely meeting the standard? Different circumstances, sure. My stud pt-er, I already know that person. So injuries or recoveries, without a doubt. But CSMs need you to lead from the front, not when I catch up to you. Just food for thought IMO.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SFC (Join to see) - so, if a CSM denies a marginal Soldier from attending a leadership school, we will still have marginal NCOs in our ranks. How is that the CSM looking out for them to be successful? Why not send them, allow fate to run it's course and purge our ranks of marginal NCOs.
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SFC (Join to see)
And my first thought was, and thats the problem in the Army nowadays. Shooting 23 is the standard. But not someone who i want on my line as a leader. He or she needs to seriously work on that. And so goes pt. A leader who only cares about passing with 60 in each event is not my go to guy even if pt is not everything. Some pt-ers are onky good at that. And thats unacceptable as well. Encompass a well rounded realm of skills. Again. Just my thought.
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I think as a 1SG minimum is just that it met the standard. If the NCO goes and fails. he or she ends their own career. I would counsel any NCO going to a professional school on such an event. I feel an NCO should never be hitting the minimum unless he or she is just coming back off of an illness or injury. Minimum score should be the minimum for 18 year old male that you must lead. When combat confronts you it is not easier for you if you are old , female or on profile.
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1SG Harold Piet
SFC Ken Heise - you are right 180 is the standard. if you are making 180 you leave no room for error. who do you know that never makes error?
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1SG Harold Piet
Who do I want leading my son or daughter into combat. the NCO with the consistent 180 or the NCO in the consistent 210+ physically fit enough that if my child needs to be helped they have a NCO to help, not one that needs help. Of course I need that NCO to be tactically and technically proficient also. But if they put in minimum effort to their PT do they put in minimum effort to the rest of their job responsibilities?
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I've seen that add a regular policy. Their reasoning is that if you can pass at 70 with your unit before leaving, then you can pass at 60 at the NCOES course where may grade you harder. The course has already been paid for, so this also gives them a chance to fill your seat with someone else if they feel you won't pass. It's actually a common policy.
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CSM (Join to see)
How about we grade to standard? If the CSM thinks his unit is soft, FIX IT. Give them the APFT and really go through the standards with them, have a class, train them on the standards. Then, grade them to the standard. If they pass, they pass. It is the standard. Personal responsibility. I get it, units are trying to save the kick backs, but we are not going about it the correct way.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SSG (Join to see) - common? But definitely not consistently applied across the force. Why would it be fair to let a Soldier attend that met a unit's 70/70/70 goal, but deny a Soldier that didn't meet another unit's 80/80/80 goal? These are arbitrary goals, not standards. There is an Army standard to attend the school, there is no subjective determination on the unit's part in determining whether a Soldier can attend or not - did they meet the Army standard - Yes or No.
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SSG (Join to see)
I agree, but I'm just stating what I have observed. I'm in a position to enforce the standard at my level, and put pressure on my peers to do the same. In my previous company our 1SG video recorded Soldiers taking the APFT prior to attending a school. He used it as a tool to show exactly where these Soldiers needed to improve their form.
The bigger problem I see is several NCOs do not know or care about the standard when grading the APFT. I believe that is why the 70/70/70 buffer originally started, because the schools do grade to standard.
I can influence a company at my level, but I'll respectfully defer to Command Sergeants Major like you for batallion/brigade policies.
The bigger problem I see is several NCOs do not know or care about the standard when grading the APFT. I believe that is why the 70/70/70 buffer originally started, because the schools do grade to standard.
I can influence a company at my level, but I'll respectfully defer to Command Sergeants Major like you for batallion/brigade policies.
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MSG (Join to see)
its up to the command, if their standard is 60,70, 80 to send sms to schooling and thats the way it should be a command wants the best and sets its goals on this
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I am just going to say this, CSM can deny you because a leader is suppose to be an example and not just barely pass.
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