Can a platoon sgt tell a female soldier that she is required to wear a bra when in civilians?

Bringing "unwanted attention to herself"? Well, if we just made all female soldiers wear burkahs off-duty, we could certainly curb those uncontrollable male impulses, amiright??? :-)

(My gawd, where are earth are we getting all these dinosaur NCOs from?????)

SGT Russell Chewning - I did 34 years in the military (1972-2006) and had no problem controlling my desires and urges while serving. However if you examine today the climate of things and of those serving and especially those younger who are serving then it seems that more of them do have a problem with excerpting control over themselves and their behavior sometimes especially towards females. That is the reason for my answer and during my time in the military I had to deal with two situations involving females under me in my chain. In both situations it was due to behavior and inappropriate actions of the males involved and one involved alcohol and was off duty and the other was on duty but did not involve alcohol. In both those situations the women had done nothing to encourage the males involved which was also a positive thing in their favor. Even so it was hard on the innocent females in some ways which also is the reason for my answer.

SMSgt, thanks for the reasoned response. Sorry if I was a little salty, but it is a new time in America, when many imbalances in our society are being addressed. Some in a good way, some not so much. The military has to adapt like everyone else does, and it just grates on me a bit to hear a lot of the older officers and NCOs continuously saying, :It's the Army way, or the highway." You seem willing to think about the problem a bit, and I appreciate that.

One example of why the "Army way or the highway" doesn't work, is that we live in a MUCH more technical age than even 15 years ago, and that requires highly intelligent soldiers to many some pretty technical jobs. It is a well-known fact that highly intelligent people do not play well with being micromanaged. They just want a leader to say what needs to get done, and then to have that leader get out of the way, and let them do it.

A lot of the NCOs or officers came from either a time or service where technical jobs were not as abundant, or simply nonexistent, so micromanaging was workable. Often times, the soldiers through lack of education or whatnot, had few better opportunities than the military, and so they were stuck where they were, and just had to deal with it. That is no longer the case. A Network Security position in the Army is often staffed by folks with a minimum 110 GT score, who can easily get out of the military after the first enlistment, and make 2-3x their military salary. That's just not a situation that fits with a micromanaging leadership style.

So as to not go on and on, that's why I pretty much come down on the side of the Plt Sgt minding their own business about how a female soldier dresses when she is off duty. It serves no real purpose but to perpetuate the idea that women need to "protect" themselves from their fellow soldiers. They have the right to be who they are when off duty, as long as they show up to the next formation sober, and squared away. And this was never really about disrupting unit cohesion. It was about a mid-level NCO exercising their authority, just because they wanted to.

SGT Russell Chewning - No I don't think a female has to protect herself from every male military member. Moral standards and things have not digressed that much in society or the military either. However I do think and believe that females do still need to be smart in their approach to things to better protect themselves from some male individuals both in the civilian world as well as that of the military. As for only doing things the Army or Air Force way I never went along with that much either especially if and when it could be shown that there was a better approach which is why I never made E-9. However I have way more medals, commendations, awards for doing some things in the military they never thought possible and more than one general officer told me he was getting his next star because of me and something I did. Just continue to work hard, never turn down any class, schooling, or training they want you to take, and never compromise your name and integrity. Strive to reach the command level where they write and dictate policy and you will find there sometimes leeway in the approach that is sometimes taken which is where I spent the last ten years of my career mainly working. At the basic base organization level things are done and operate with less deviation and less consideration to anything but what the regs say and what current policy is. However at the command level they determine it, dictate it, and can even deviate from it when the situation calls for it and waive the regulations that govern everybody below them.

Again... I don't think a single person on this discussion debated that a female should wear a bra on duty. This entire subject is about a leader attempting to govern a soldier's dress when off-duty. leaders don't own their soldiers, and NO female should ever have to dress more conservatively to avoid "undue attention" from males. That's an antiquated, dinosaur viewpoint.

That being said, you were 100% correct. I simply think that unless a soldier's personal conduct or dress when off-duty interferes with their ability to do their job, leadership needs to get it's nose out of soldier's business. That's probably a bigger and bigger factor in the military's recruitment issues. The younger generation across the entire job market is kind of woke to the idea that an employer, ANY employer, should not own them in their time off.

It's not about dressing conservatively or avoiding attention ... its about uniform wear IAW the applicable regs (at the time) ... the example I cited was in about 1980 or 81 ... at that time, a female was issued a bra and was expected to wear a bra as a part of her uniform...even if that individual was not as "endowed" as her peers. I remember first day in basic, MTI said "you will shave everyday...I don't care if there is nothing there to show...you will shave everyday!" and we all did.

Off duty, she should be able to wear or not wear what she wants. Didn't catch the off duty part first time.

Col (Join to see) - The military also use to ban gay people serving, as well. Times change.

PO3 Ronda Kelly Were you not required to purchase them at the beginning with your initial clothing allowance disbursement?
Are you sure that it wasn't a required uniform clothing component during your time in service?

Thank you SSG Robert Webster ... your response was right on point. As a retired female MSG, I know I was expected to purchase appropriate undergarments with my initial clothing allowance and that requirement has not changed ... thank goodness!

SSG Robert Webster - During my time in service 1977-1999 we were not given an underwear allowance nor a hosiery allowance. That expense was out of our pocket! And at $25 to $50 per bra and $2.50-$5.00 a pop for hose (required wear with uniform skirts) it added up! HELLO!

PO1 Rennae Rosenberg - Provide your first two LES (Leave and Earning Statement) and I can show you that you are incorrect. It was basically the same for men or women at the time except for the amount given on that initial clothing and personal hygiene allowance. And one more thing brassieres that were required in 1977 did not cost $25 each.
As for your time in service statement you are wrong and I can prove it in more ways than one. First I served during that same time period 1976 to 1996. Interestingly, from what you are stating with your time in service that at least part if not most of that time period was in the Reserves. So after basic or initial entry training, then you were not purchasing your required underwear from the NEX or Clothing Sales Store with those prices that you quoted.
And I am quite sure that if I dug through a few of documents from the relevant time period, the Navy (or any other branch) did not have brassieres priced in the range you quoted on the clothing list or the clothing allowance cost sheets.
Anyway, why did not address your response to the female MSG (E-8)? I am sure that she also served during all or part of the time period that you stated.
If you spent more than your allowance, it would not surprise me, but that was your decision for your comfort and peace of mind. And though you were not directly issued the items in question, you were given the money to purchase stated items, as I have already stated.

I think a such a counseling statement would be similar to the ones for wearing a civilian shirt that has obscene images or words, dying your hair to an unnatural color like pink or blue, or wearing jewelry that is not tasteful and conservative. It all comes back to maintaining a professional appearance, even when not on duty. If you are on leave or are a reservist not on orders, that's one thing, but SPC Bolden is overseas. She could be called up to duty at a moment's notice during her regular off-duty time.

Another thing to keep in mind is like sexual harassment, what's considered "professional appearance" with civilian attire (or lack of) can vary significantly from one person to the next. For you, going in public without wearing a bra may be a matter of personal preference. Others (male and/or female) may think women who go braless in public are trying to be sexually provocative. You can say such people shouldn't be so uptight about seeing unrestrained breasts, but couldn't the same also be said of someone who takes offensive with overhearing a sexual joke from co-workers, even if it's during off-duty hours?

I've always thought the back of it "prints" too easily through so many t shirts etc.
* Think panty lines through white slacks.

SGT (Join to see) - It's pretty arrogant of male culture to determine what is "dressing professionally" for a female... who is off duty. And more to the point, would you like me to provide a long list of highly unprofessional male conduct that is accepted across the military culture? How about the sword "booty tap" of another man's newlywed wife at a military wedding with a sword detail? The Navy crossing the equator traditions of being squirted down with mustard and ketchup, while dressed as women? As, I guess the idea of dressing as a woman is inherently funny? America has been a male-dominated culture for a long time, and women are starting to fight a little harder for their equality.

And here's a clue.... What is seen as "dressing professionally" is 100% dependent of society-specific social norms, and changes with time. The German military can wear beards, and no one goes around calling them unprofessional, but indoctrinated upper enlisted and officers in the U.S. military will be quick to remind you of how unprofessional a beard is on a soldier. I am so severely disappointed in the vast majority of the comments coming down on the side of the PSG, versus a REAL discussion of why we feel we can dictate a female's behavior off duty, if that behavior in NO way impacts her joob performance.

And we wonder why the military is having recruitment issues? People don't like to be "owned". A soldier showing some nips off duty in no way, shape, or form impacts the readiness or reputation of any branch of the U.S. military. This is the height of pettiness.

The military is a subset of the overriding society, and just as society has its norms, so too does the subculture within the military. Things change as times change, but that doesn't mean that tradition is always bad. No one should joint the military expecting individuality since that's the last place you should expect to find it. But if it is that important to you, then you should seriously consider finding a different career as soon as you tour is completed.

As for equality, that is an illusion when it come to the sexes, since there is no way two psychological opposites can be equal (do you request the male PT qualifications?). What you should strive for is fair and equivalent treatment. At least that way your goal has a much better chance of success, since that is something that would work to the mutual satisfaction of everyone involved.

SPC Michael Dillon - Yup, and those suckers show on a cold day, too. But let's f***ing harass females, because it's a male culture, and we've become accustomed to our ability to do so, right? And to think, a female PSG is buying into this BS.

SGT Russell Chewning - It's not so much "male culture" as human culture. I will leave it at that.

SPC Stiv ChenRobbins "Human culture" 10,000 had women walking around topless, and nobody gave a crap. This is relatively new cultural phenomenon, as far as humanity is concerned. And the civilian populace is beckming less tolerant of this type of male authoritarianim. The military is tasked with protecting American ideals, not with continuing anti-female practices. On duty, I completely support the military's right to dictate dress code. Off duty and off post (barring a minor concession for middle east duty stations), I feel the PSG had no right to tell the SM to wear a bra, and if the PSG proceeded with harassing this soldier, let's get em both in front of the commander to get their take of where a PSG's rights to dictate dress codes offduty ends, from a unit commander perspective. Either way it turns out, I am willing to bet that after this PSG has to explain themselves before the commander, they'll be less likely to stick their nose in a service member's personal time, if unwarranted. Petty dictators must be fought at all times, if one can do so without facing UCMJ action. I see this as a perfect opportunity to do so.

Before someone else responds with the hackneyed, "If you don't like following orders, then get out!", I must make the point: That thinking is what made the rise of Nazism in pre WWii Germany. I am SURE some German soldiers/NCOs spoke out internally against the distrubing authoritarian trend the military was taking. If the NCOs had spoken up and taken a firm stance on what is RIGHT, and what is WRONG, regulations be damned, Hitler never would have come to power. I see a disturbing trend amongst the enlisted on here to think that the military has 100% right to govern your life and that questioning enforcement of any regulation, even in a polite and professional manner, is verboten. Even as a SPC, I have challenged a PSG when I felt they were wrong, and guess what? I did so professiknally, got locked up at parade rest so the PSG could save face, and my input was duly noted and acted upon by the PSG, completely changing his leadership style. Just because folks may be lower enlisted, does NOT make them powerless to express disagreement with a superior. That's what makes our armed services great. Only, I am disturbed by the trend that seems to be discouraging that on Rally Point.

Ten thousand years ago there were no laws or governments either so people could do whatever they wanted without fear of punishment or repercussions. Is that the lifestyle you're suggest we revert back to? Does it occur to you that considering the laws we now have that living under those conditions didn't work out to well?