Posted on Apr 18, 2019
SPC Healthcare Specialist (Combat Medic)
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I am a female in the army current on rotation over seas. I was just told by my team leader that my platoon Sgt (female) told him that I need to start wearing a bra while off duty. in the clothes that I wear, you can't see my nipple or even the color of my nipple nor do I wear revealing or low cut shirts. At the most, you can just see that I am simply not wearing one. Nowhere in any reg does it say it’s required not even in uniform. Can she tell me to do so?
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CPL Jay Strickland
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On duty ? Absolutely. Off duty if it detracts from a professional apperance. It is subjective and depends on the person's body. In theory you could challenge it by going up the chain but my guess is it's not worth it. As a personal anecdote during a civillan clothes PT day an extremely embarrassed female platoon sergeant told me I was required to wear briefs and not boxers while engaged in running/jumping on base. So this is not solely a female issue.
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SSG Elyzabeth Cromer
SSG Elyzabeth Cromer
4 y
That I can understand, I am sure you didn't know and you took corrective action as soon as you did. Some men use the "oops it's hanging out" as a power play.
When I was an E4 (way back in basic training) Sunday from noon on, the uniform of the day was usually PT uniform, (the grey cotton one). There was a platoon leader who liked to walk up to the females if they were seated on the floor, and he would have his member hanging out the side of the shorts liner so it would be at eye level to the woman he was talking to. If any of them complained his response was, "You shouldn't be looking". I was an E4 in basic training because I had a college degree, I was also 34 years old and had spent 10 years working with teenagers. He was replaced as platoon leader the Monday after he tried that with me. Our Platoon SGT who was one of the two people in the entire Batalion who was older than me always said, "If you don't start no mess, there won't be no mess." That PV2 was on the "watch" list the rest of basic, did not get away with anything.
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1SG Civil Affairs Specialist
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Did the PSG elaborate on her rationale for this?
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SGT Russell Chewning
SGT Russell Chewning
>1 y
1SG (Join to see) - Thank goodness we actually have some non-indoctrinated enlisted leaders who can think for themselves.
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SFC Laurie Schultz
SFC Laurie Schultz
>1 y
She doesn’t need to.
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SFC Laurie Schultz
SFC Laurie Schultz
>1 y
Wow. And you’re in a position of command? She’s on rotation. Unless you like females walking around braless in public...hmmm1SG (Join to see)
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1SG Civil Affairs Specialist
1SG (Join to see)
>1 y
SFC Laurie Schultz - It ain't my first day.
My thinking is that absent some sort of actual issue arising, women's undergarments are none of my damn business.
If you want my real take, I'd say that the Specialist is turning some heads, and Platoon Sergeant gal has noticed it and decided the way to quash it is this approach.
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MSG Chief Intilligence Sergeant
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I think the best course of action here is to ask your team leader to schedule a meeting for you with the PSG and ask the PSG for clarification on what you did or did not do to necessitate receiving the directive. "Generally" there is a good reason for something like this that just didn't get filtered down to you. Either way you'll get far better results than all of the answers on RP.
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SGT Russell Chewning
SGT Russell Chewning
>1 y
Srzlee? Perhaps you've been in a lot more professional units than I have been, but most of the time I saw a "borderline" case enforced, it was 100% due to the leader's preference, and they couldn't quote the reg if you put a gun to their head. Plenty of examples on Rally Point of leaders enforcing regs that simply don't exist.
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GySgt Kenneth Pepper
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The simple answer is yes, of course she can. The reason she issued the order is irrelevant. There could be a multitude of reasons why. Unless you have a valid reason for not complying with a lawful order you can and likely will be held accountable.
Don't let something so trivial trip you up. If you are serious about your career you will need to learn that you will sometimes have to sacrifice comfort and individualism for the greater good.
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SGT Russell Chewning
SGT Russell Chewning
>1 y
"Greater good"? Please clarify how a woman dressing more conservatively when off-duty is for "the greater good" of the military? Like, break it right on down for me... And, given the rising attention being given to male-driven policy in the marketplace that negatively affects females, and the severe backlash against it..... Please explain how this is not just about the preference of some male who wrote a policy back in the 70's or whatnot?

As much sexual harassment training as the military gets, we OUGHT to be at the point where no means no, and no matter how a female is dressed, sexual harassment is ALWAYS the fault of the harasser. So the conservative dress to avoid "undue attention" doesn't play, sorry Gunny.

Listen, I know the Marines get more indoctrination than most of the other services, and I realize that regulations have to be enforced, but it's going to an extreme to not think about an antiquated, sexist regulation, and question whether it still even deserves a place. The U.S. is making great strides, what with women forcing dudes to deal with seeing a breast out in public, breastfeeding. Leaders should be thinking a little bit more about the world they are protecting. We expect our soldiers to be "the best of the best", but we tell an off-duty female how to dress, lest she get a male too excited? Archaic.
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GySgt Kenneth Pepper
GySgt Kenneth Pepper
>1 y
You read way too deep into my reply. The words "undue attention" were not part of my reply, so I guess you just assumed that was my point. Not at all.
What I said is that having to wear a bra, regardless of why, is not a battle worth fighting. It is no different than any SM following any regulation, regardless of gender, race, or origin that have a preference for something that is not within the regs. It's really not that hard.
The greater good is something you may not be able to grasp. Sacrificing birthdays, anniversaries, and yes, possibly your life are what I'm referring to. Not a simple piece of fabric.
Assuming my point of view has anything to do with sexuality is archaic. You projected an image of me based on the fact I am a retired GYSGT of Marines. That is called prejudice.
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GySgt John Hudson
GySgt John Hudson
4 y
Don't worry about it Ken... You made a good call and said that same statement we all do. We do sacrifice much for greater good.. Gunns/JP
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SrA Lisa Hunt
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Put the bra on, child, and quit whining! Look at all these nice men trying to be PC & not step on your feelings...it's irrelevant! If you can't follow this simple request, you don't belong in uniform. Your personal beliefs are irrelevant especially when you represent women in the military and all we fought for to achieve to be allowed to even wear a uniform. Out of the country is even more imperative. Do you not realize this is basic traing bs? You were told to wear the bra, wear it...suck it up, buttercup!
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SSG Jerry Chlarson
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Current Rotation Overseas doesn't tell us where which, can make a big difference. Arabic countries are going to see things differently than the local dance club in the US or Germany. That said, if the PSG wants to say something, they need to say it, not pawn it off on a Team Leader. That's like me telling my kids to tell another kid how to dress at school. The PSG can include the Team Leader in the discussion/counseling, but it's not his job too do the PSG's job. Good Order and Appearance is so subjective it's probably actually worth asking for a "proper counseling" on a 4856 so you are not fighting "a audita pro compertis" (hear say) battle and you have it in your personnel file. Remember you do not have to agree with the counseling, but make sure your reply statement accurately reflects the facts of the counseling, not your opinions. Elevate it if you want the fight, but don't put emotion into it. I would maybe go so far as to include pictures of the "offending" clothing (not unlike the Tattoo Picture Policy) as examples to show clear evidence of your civilian attire. I'm betting it won't go past Co level, the LT or XO could put a quick stop to it at a Platoon level. You may win the fight, but it could put you in the line of fire too, so choose your battles. A simple solution would be to comply when in the Co/Post area, and once you are out on the town, take it off and go about your business.

I read a comment where a Male said they wouldn't address a Female about this. That is also a wrong answer. Get over yourselves when talking to the opposite sex. If you're willing to type it out on RP, then Man Up and be a leader to your Soldiers.
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SGT Russell Chewning
SGT Russell Chewning
>1 y
Not a chance in the world, given the current social environment in the U.S., that the PSG would be willing to write that down in a counseling statement, unless the soldier is in the middle east, or other region where women's rights are not supported, and their lives may be in danger, as you say. Personally, I hold that this regulation has no place outside of such an environment.
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SSG Jerry Chlarson
SSG Jerry Chlarson
>1 y
SGT Russell Chewning - Pretty much agreed, but if it's not in writing it's hard to enforce either way. I think the sad part is the PSG is trying to pawn it off, which is pure Bull Shit. He's (she's) scared of the repercussions which isn't leadership in and of itself. The PSG is setting there Team Leader up to be the fall guy.
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SSG Carlos Madden
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Edited 5 y ago
This seems like a really strange request tbh. However, one thing that caught my attention is that you're on a rotation overseas. First, this means that "off duty time" may be a little more regulated than when you're CONUS (I'm not sure of your unit, security situation, mission or anything so it's just a guess). Second, there could be a cultural reason your PSG is giving you this directive. For example, if you're in a place like Kuwait and around locals, I can see how a tight fitting shirt and/or going braless may cause friction with the host nation - something the Army as a whole is sensitive to. Is that fair to US servicewomen overseas? Probably not but unfortunately that's the world most people live in.

Again, I don't know the specifics but it's something to consider.
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SSG Elyzabeth Cromer
SSG Elyzabeth Cromer
4 y
In a situation where local customs are more conservative than those in some U.S. cities and towns Command Policy should address the matter. If the the local area is of a nature that a woman going braless is putting herself in danger and they have not instituted a dress code and a buddy system for all soldiers; than the Command is in my opinion not doing a very good job of taking care of their soldiers. There are parts of the world where you not only do not go braless but you cover your arms, legs and hair. If you as a female U.S. citizen serving in the military have to cover more than that, I seriously doubt you are leaving base or are allowed to wear civilian clothing around foreign nationals.
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1SG S6 Communications Ncoic
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DA Pam 18-30 Undergarments...check it out. You will wear that shit in uniform. Now that we have that out of the way.

So it must clearly be making someone uncomfortable that you aren’t wearing a bra in civilian clothes. Put one one, drink some water and march on. Pretty easy.
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1SG S6 Communications Ncoic
1SG (Join to see)
5 y
*DA Pam 670-1, 18-30
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SSG Robert Webster
SSG Robert Webster
5 y
I covered that in one of my comments about 1 month ago.
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MSG Vrs Ncoic
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6
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SFC JOHNSTON is completely on point. From a female perspective, we must maintain a professional appearance at all times, in or out if uniform. Unfortunately, that is subjective and vas
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Cpl Bill Herman
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When I was in the Corps, we (male and female) were told basically what we could wear Off Base and that at All times we were 24/7 in the Corps and should Always dress Appropriately. We were never given any Regs or rules on what was Appropriate, but we knew and most all the time adhered to being a 24/7 Marine even in civilian attire. Of course I cannot speak for everyone.
I do know that when on base in civies we always dressed appropriately.
Much later after the Corps I worked for the Army and I often saw Soldiers dressed like crap, sloppy, when in civies and sometimes even in Uniform.
So if there is no reg I would think she can dress as she pleases. But I would not want to PO my Superior Non Coms and would say fine and then wait until I was out of sight.
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