Posted on Apr 18, 2019
Can a platoon sgt tell a female soldier that she is required to wear a bra when in civilians?
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I am a female in the army current on rotation over seas. I was just told by my team leader that my platoon Sgt (female) told him that I need to start wearing a bra while off duty. in the clothes that I wear, you can't see my nipple or even the color of my nipple nor do I wear revealing or low cut shirts. At the most, you can just see that I am simply not wearing one. Nowhere in any reg does it say it’s required not even in uniform. Can she tell me to do so?
Civilians
DA Pam 670-1
Women in the Military
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 404
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Nips or no nips. I was training a group of women from USS Lexington in a damage control trainer, Wet, wet, wet. They asked to take of their dungaree shirts. It was over 100 on the field. They entered and did their thing. There was a five foot window. As they rubber upo against it, ops nips. They the fell out and stood on assigned numbers. That was to see if everyone was OK> Double OPS aging. Their female Ensign (01) looked and started to semi chew me out. Ensigns are not very good squeak woice and all. I was an SCPO (E8). Their female master Chief (E9) saw waht was happening and walked over to the Ensign and told her double coverage. Tee shirt and bra, tee shirt and dungaree shirt but no nipple exposing single coverage. By now all the males were just starring. I could see my E8 anchor and flying off my colors but nope, double coverage saved my day. One nip is like any nip, male or female - like no one has seen one or two (pun intended).
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PO1 Chad Alcock
When I was leading the Honor Guard out of NAS Lemoore, I had to remind a female sailor that underwear with pink flowers on them were not authorized in uniform, especially dress whites. Like Gunny Hoeft said below, delivery is a big part of how the correction is received. At the end of the day we're all human and things slip our minds. I would prefer someone correct me if I'm ate up, regardless of rank. If they do it with professional courtesy, then there shouldn't be a problem. Once as an E3, I pointed out to a Marine Colonel that he was missing a button on his mess dress uniform (we were attending the Navy Ball). All the other airmen were shocked that I had done that. The Colonel looked to make sure that it was still there, glad that it was because the "damned things are expensive" and thanked me for letting him know.
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Pick your battles wisely, you are overseas in a different culture. My wife hammered into my thick skull the words, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?" You may very well be correct that your PSG can't tell you to wear a bra when in civilian attire, you could make a huge issue of it, get the whole chain of command involved and generate a great deal of animosity directed at yourself because of it. Maybe you'll win, but then discover that you've suddenly become unable to do anything right, first in line for crap, last for good stuff. Petty? You bet. Unprofessional? Definitely. Does it happen? I saw it every day, and admit to having had a special project or two of my own in my younger days; looking back not something I'm exactly proud of. Your PSG has a good deal of control over the amount of happiness you can enjoy, so do you want to be right? Or do you want to be happy? Think about and decide. I'd put the thing on and go with happy, give the PSG one less excuse to mess with you.
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Hmm! I agree with 1SG, but would add that you need to know what your duty station's interpretation of AR-670-1, since there is some ambiguity. If the duty station's interpretation is going bra-less in not consistent with a professional image and the SGT is just carrying this out, then you should comply or suffer the consequences. When you enlisted you agreed to abide by the UCMJ and all associated policies and regulations, On the other hand, if this is just the SGT's personal interpretation then that is another matter. So its seems to me you need to make sure you are on solid ground before you challenge your platoon leader. Platoon leaders and your enlisted superiors and officers are not infallible and some are absolute jerks and a-holes, but the system tends to favor them so you have to have your ducks in order and be prepared for the consequences. The question is this, is it worth all the hassle over to be bra-ed or bra-less.
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The 1sg has the best answer. But, I don't think this is the place for that specific of a question or even the context.
Have to be careful, you never know who is in here.
Have to be careful, you never know who is in here.
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Speaking from a female point of view if your breast are big enough for a bra and you’re not wearing one it’s tacky...wear a bra! Unless you’re looking to draw attention to yourself...which you’re obviously getting.
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Not sure but if the Regulation does not require it, you do not have to but I learned in the military if you "piss off" a superior, they will make your life miserable.
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Probably one of the more ignorant directives to be said to any soldier. Your team leader should have balked and refused to comply with the instructions. Sexist, disrespectful to subordinates, and skirting <subtle> towards sexual harassment by a supervisor. <Yes, she could have been indirectly hitting on you, and she made your team leader complicit.
When you said civilian clothes, your PSG has little to no impact on your attire. That's not an absolute by any means. To suggest to wear a bra? Wrong. . .absolutely wrong. Think about it.
How many actually WEAR a padded bra and one can locate a "nipple?" See that slippery slope of compromise there? A man's nipple. Makes it okay? See where I'm going here.
Your PSG better recognize. Really. . .sounds like she's indirectly hitting on you.
When you said civilian clothes, your PSG has little to no impact on your attire. That's not an absolute by any means. To suggest to wear a bra? Wrong. . .absolutely wrong. Think about it.
How many actually WEAR a padded bra and one can locate a "nipple?" See that slippery slope of compromise there? A man's nipple. Makes it okay? See where I'm going here.
Your PSG better recognize. Really. . .sounds like she's indirectly hitting on you.
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PO2 Ken Derickson
Give me a break. When you sign up, you agree to obey the UCMJ and Regs. You, as a MSM, should know this better than most military personnel. Most are there for a good reason, since during the time of war there is no time for questioning, you just need to do you have been trained to do without thinking, to protect yourself and your comrades. The issue of wearing and not wearing a bra is trivial in the grand scheme of things. Most of the American people (even many liberals) respect our military personnel and put their faith in them to protect them and the nation. Therefore, it is important for military personnel to maintain a professional demeanor. I saw to much of this lack of military discipline in the military support personnel (not combat personnel) when I was in Iraq and it created problems with security and contributed to some unnecessary loss of lives. Sloppy dress, sloppy handling of weapons, lackadaisical attitudes and inefficiency.
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SGM Robert Murray
Got it. When you inputted the label "liberal," your ignorance showed. You're a troll.
Civilian clothes. Are you not employing critical thinking skills? Civilian clothes. Reflect on just how far the scope of AR670-1 goes when it comes to attire. Really. . .
Civilian clothes. Are you not employing critical thinking skills? Civilian clothes. Reflect on just how far the scope of AR670-1 goes when it comes to attire. Really. . .
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When it comes down to how the Army works.... She can tell you to do anything as long as it isn't illegal or immoral. If she feels not wearing a bra is unprofessional she can absolutely direct you to start wearing one because of AR 670-1. Now the final word always comes from the CDR.. With that being said a CDR can over turn anything in his unit... Because it's his! Although most CDR are smart enough not to step on NCO's toes when it comes to how they lead their squads. I will tell you this as advise. Although it seems stupid and unfair the Army will allow NCOs to lead how they see fit. The best thing I would say do, as an E-6 myself, would be to say "rgr" and keep pushing through. You won't be under her forever. Half the struggle of being in the military is the mental strength to deal with the bull shit that come with enlistment.
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SSG (Join to see)
SGM Robert Murray
AR670-1 Chapter 3-9 paragraph B&C
b. When on duty in civilian clothes or off duty and outside of their personal dwelling, Army personnel will present a
professional image that does not detract from the profession, unless specifically exempted by the commander for specific
mission requirements.
c. Soldiers are associated and identified with the Army in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when
civilian clothing is worn, Soldiers will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are commensurate with the high
standards traditionally associated with Army service. Commanders are charged with determining and publishing the local
civilian clothing policy. When on a military installation, civilian headgear will be removed indoors in accordance with
established norms.
According to dissemination of authority on these matters the senior NCO will make a decision to keep the problem at the lowest level. If she wants to take it to the commander she can... I'm not saying she can't. I under stand you may be a SGM but I deal with these situations often. Now if you would still like to get upset that I said "feels" we can go down the route of saying "In her professional NCO opinion not wearing a bra is unprofessional." Not that I have proved it IS in the regulation would you like to retract any statements you may have made in regards to the matter?
AR670-1 Chapter 3-9 paragraph B&C
b. When on duty in civilian clothes or off duty and outside of their personal dwelling, Army personnel will present a
professional image that does not detract from the profession, unless specifically exempted by the commander for specific
mission requirements.
c. Soldiers are associated and identified with the Army in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when
civilian clothing is worn, Soldiers will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are commensurate with the high
standards traditionally associated with Army service. Commanders are charged with determining and publishing the local
civilian clothing policy. When on a military installation, civilian headgear will be removed indoors in accordance with
established norms.
According to dissemination of authority on these matters the senior NCO will make a decision to keep the problem at the lowest level. If she wants to take it to the commander she can... I'm not saying she can't. I under stand you may be a SGM but I deal with these situations often. Now if you would still like to get upset that I said "feels" we can go down the route of saying "In her professional NCO opinion not wearing a bra is unprofessional." Not that I have proved it IS in the regulation would you like to retract any statements you may have made in regards to the matter?
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SSG (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) I should have pressed enter a couple times... Where is starts with "According to diss..." those are my words, not the AR.
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SGM Robert Murray
Hypothetically speaking, if I were the 1SG and heard about this incident, I would counsel the PSG on a more effective method for correcting what she perceived as a shortcoming relating to a member of her platoon. The female in question WAS NOT a direct subordinate given the fact the directive was given to the team lead to pass on to the soldier. Mistake one. Male or female, the conversation should have been had directly . . .with a witness to ensure no misunderstanding relating to why this issue is being addressed. From the outside looking in, it could be perceived as a case of sexual harassment by the PSG towards the soldier. Oh yes, women can be sexual predators. The PSG needs to minimize that optic by having a witness when she talks to the soldier.
I'm surprised you didn't see this as a potential case of sexual harassment? Hmmm.
You've not seen female leaders sexually harass soldiers in YOUR career? This is a glaring example of something that might have occurred.
I'm surprised you didn't see this as a potential case of sexual harassment? Hmmm.
You've not seen female leaders sexually harass soldiers in YOUR career? This is a glaring example of something that might have occurred.
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SSG (Join to see)
Her PSG told her Team leader to tell her. That is how the ranks structure works other than notifying her squad leader. PSG is not required to talk to every individual in his/her platoon about thier shortcomings. That is what squad leaders and team leaders are for. If a soldier in my squad is late I get on the team leaders ass to fix it... Not the soldier. I should be able to trust the NCOs under me to fix the issue at hand when I have other issues to attend to. So yes she is under her direct authority. I don't see how your "direct subordinate" holds any wieght considering there is a thing called general military authority. So are you telling me if I was PVT sniffy and I stole a candy bar from the PX then you as a SGM should come down to Aco to find me and tell me not to do that or should you get ahold of my command to fix it? This is an example of chain of command. To me it sounds like you are more of a micromanager.
Also the statement of sexual harassment would fall flat. Have you gone to a SHARP class? The PSG notice one of her soldiers wasn't wearing a bra. How is that sexual harassment? Because she noticed something? Are you saying when I see a Victoria secret commercial I am commiting sexual harassment because I noticed thier bra?
And yes I have seen plenty of examples of sexual harassment being that I was Infantry for 6 years.
Are you not going to acknowledge the fact that you were wrong about the AR? This argument isn't about how it's handled... It's about if it's in the regulation and I have completed that arguement. This is becoming a pointless debate between leadership styles. Now I'm not going to continue this banter just because you want to be right about something.
SPC (Join to see) I hope you enjoy your time in the Army. I have had leaders like you have now. The best thing to do is to use these leaders to shape how you want to lead. You get to see these different leadership styles. Pick what you feel is best and make it your own. Like I said before, you CAN bring this higher but it may cause some ripples it how the command see you.. Or the NCO... Depending on how the CDR rules it. Remember every decision we make has a consequence. Good luck.
Also the statement of sexual harassment would fall flat. Have you gone to a SHARP class? The PSG notice one of her soldiers wasn't wearing a bra. How is that sexual harassment? Because she noticed something? Are you saying when I see a Victoria secret commercial I am commiting sexual harassment because I noticed thier bra?
And yes I have seen plenty of examples of sexual harassment being that I was Infantry for 6 years.
Are you not going to acknowledge the fact that you were wrong about the AR? This argument isn't about how it's handled... It's about if it's in the regulation and I have completed that arguement. This is becoming a pointless debate between leadership styles. Now I'm not going to continue this banter just because you want to be right about something.
SPC (Join to see) I hope you enjoy your time in the Army. I have had leaders like you have now. The best thing to do is to use these leaders to shape how you want to lead. You get to see these different leadership styles. Pick what you feel is best and make it your own. Like I said before, you CAN bring this higher but it may cause some ripples it how the command see you.. Or the NCO... Depending on how the CDR rules it. Remember every decision we make has a consequence. Good luck.
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I would suggest A) listening to 1SG Johnston"s advice as a SPC you should be learning to choose your battles wisely don't fight a battle you will lose. 2) research the regulations concerning civilian attire are covered in AR 700-84. Remember choose your battles wisely good luck to you SPC.
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