Posted on Oct 30, 2015
Can counselling chits be back dated to past events that weren't documented at the time?
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I know a sailor that is being told from their chain of command, that they are trying to send said sailor up to Captain's Mast. Right now they are making said sailor sign counselling chits for past events that they were already verbally counselled for and transpired over the past year. Is such a thing legal and does anyone know the instruction for it? The only thing I can find is:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/milpersman/1000/1600Performance/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/milpersman/1000/1600Performance/Pages/default.aspx
Navy
Punishment
Counseling
Article 15
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 49
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PO1 (Join to see)
Actually they cannot counsel the member on paper for past offenses in this case because the member was already verbally counseled. If there was no counseling at all in the past it would be a different story. To put it on paper now undermines the verbal/paper counseling relationship. In other word it's known at most commands you get three strikes on paper before being placed on a report chit which as we all know leads to DRB and whatever other steps are deemed fit. A verbal counseling is usually considered a warning, if at anytime someone could go back and change a warning into a strike against you it opens a Pandora's box for all kinds of nasty things to happen. Think about it, if a police officer lets you off with a warning and then 3 months later for whatever his reason is he decides to write you a ticket and mail it to you would that be fair?
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PO1 Ken Vansickle
as it seems in this matter its the LCPO and higher that decide to build a paper trail to ether take that person to mast or to out right try to get him or her kicked out because he doesn't measure up to them, no its not right he doesn't have to sigh but in the long run his life will be made so hard that he will be written up for anything and the past counseling will be summited with out him signing them his only recourse is to contact a base lawyer but he must have everything documented him self, so to say all his ducks in a row request a transfer which will be disapproved
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MCPO Jim Weatherford
If it's not documented it never happenned. You can call it verbal counseling, ass chewing , come to Jesus but, if it was not documented you don't have a leg to stand on. Wanting to go and back date counseling chits is an exercise in futility. Sounds like the Chain of Command tried to save this person numerous times by "verbally" counseling them and it has bit them in the butt so now they want retribution.
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Basically it's forgery. Putting a false date on a counseling chit and then trying to use that to support an NJP is idiotic.
Start with UCMJ Article 123.
Start with UCMJ Article 123.
Punitive articles of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). Includes information from the Manual for Court Martial (MCM), 2002, including text from the UCMJ, elements of proof, explanation of offenses, and maximum permissible punishment under military court-martial.
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Never ever sign anything with past date. If they are going to force them, make sure he notes that on his section that this is post dated, this was a verbal counciling they are now changing to written and they are signing it under duress.
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1SG Charles Hunter
Refusing to sign simply results in a counselor's comment: "Service member refused to sign." Sign with comment, with the current date.
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SGM (Join to see)
I think the practice of backdating counseling to achieve an outcome is the issue here.
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SGM (Join to see)
Does this equate to a leader asking a service member to sign a blank counseling form with the intent of filling in the content later?
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You can write a chit dated currently about a past action but can't back date a chit. I would add though they are a bunch of idiots if they are trying to document stuff now that happened in the past just for a Mass. Makes zero sense to this old man.
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PO3 Jesse Bullock
I'm honestly not sure if the chain of command can use a verbal counseling retroactively. As we all know, nonjudicial proceedings are not punitive in nature. This would never hold up in any subsequent proceedings.
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PO1 James Thornton
You can't do it. As an MA1 when I wrote counselings I always wrote what I talked to the sailor about and kept documentation. The first class of the sailor should not allow that backdating stuff to happen. That would be a black eye to the chain of command.
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Absolutely not legal to back date a previous action. Tell him not to sign and request a JAG lawyer
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PO1 Michael Bruso
Okay here's an idea, document as best as possible what occurs on a current counseling form. How's that?
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CPO (Join to see)
Firstly, consult with JAG, this doesn't sound "right."
Secondly, and what I've done in the past if doing written counseling on past performance, I would not backdate the chit but rather in the comments of discrepancy "On this date, member did the following..."
Firstly, consult with JAG, this doesn't sound "right."
Secondly, and what I've done in the past if doing written counseling on past performance, I would not backdate the chit but rather in the comments of discrepancy "On this date, member did the following..."
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MILPERSMAN 1910-202 And the NRTC "Military reqs for PO1" summarize what a counseling chit is intended for: to identify an issue and provide the member an opportunity to correct deficiencies. If the chain of command did not feel the need to put anything on paper, that's their failure. If anything goes on paper now for past issues it will raise question to their leadership. Anything signed will have to be for a current date and the Sailor can make the argument that he or she was only recently formally notified of his or her deficiency and had no reasonable time to correct the problem.
I've always seen local instructions that state formal counselings a should be conducted within 72 hours of an infraction.
Also, to receive a verbal counseling only to receive a written counseling approaches An issue of trivial/petty form double jeopardy and harassment.
Im not advocating for the accused Sailor, but the chain of command needs to operate with a higher form of discipline and responsibility.
I've always seen local instructions that state formal counselings a should be conducted within 72 hours of an infraction.
Also, to receive a verbal counseling only to receive a written counseling approaches An issue of trivial/petty form double jeopardy and harassment.
Im not advocating for the accused Sailor, but the chain of command needs to operate with a higher form of discipline and responsibility.
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Suspended Profile
No way...
CPO Michael Burns
Well, sir, there is a way. As long as the dates on the signature blocks are the dates it was actually signed... but it is shady and wouldn't hold much water at a courts martial. In fact, it would be written documentation that the command isn't doing its job right. Unfathomable, in my opinion.
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