Posted on Oct 30, 2015
Can counselling chits be back dated to past events that weren't documented at the time?
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I know a sailor that is being told from their chain of command, that they are trying to send said sailor up to Captain's Mast. Right now they are making said sailor sign counselling chits for past events that they were already verbally counselled for and transpired over the past year. Is such a thing legal and does anyone know the instruction for it? The only thing I can find is:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/milpersman/1000/1600Performance/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/milpersman/1000/1600Performance/Pages/default.aspx
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 49
That's wrong. That's a technicality for the COC they can't and should not pursue.
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I wouldn't think it is legal, and if I were him (or his supervisor) i would be talking to the ADC before signing anything...
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This is pretty vague and there could be a lot more going on, so I'll pose a different question. Is the person requesting the member sign the backdated counseling chits the same person routing the report chit up? If yes, member should probably talk to legal.
The reason I started off with asking who is routing the report chit is this: It might be hard to believe, but there are still people around who try to take care of their people. Soooo, say something came out in an investigation worthy of bringing said sailor into the investigation for further questioning but the immediate chain of command said "I already counseled them on that, no need to take further action ", the chain of command will in most cases request documentation.
On the other hand, if said sailor is a habitual screw up, they don't really "need" the counseling chits to send him up to the CO. NJP is very different from courts martial. If you are currently out at sea, you're pretty much screwed, forget about requesting courts martial. Buuuut, if the person just tries to wiezel his/her way out of trouble by going to legal or requesting courts martial, be VERY careful in what you wish for.
Then of course there is always that thing where people take responsibility for their actions and take a just punishment......that usually goes a long way in getting a reduced punishment. If it feels wrong, it probably is wrong, seek legal counsel, but don't be a dick about it.
The reason I started off with asking who is routing the report chit is this: It might be hard to believe, but there are still people around who try to take care of their people. Soooo, say something came out in an investigation worthy of bringing said sailor into the investigation for further questioning but the immediate chain of command said "I already counseled them on that, no need to take further action ", the chain of command will in most cases request documentation.
On the other hand, if said sailor is a habitual screw up, they don't really "need" the counseling chits to send him up to the CO. NJP is very different from courts martial. If you are currently out at sea, you're pretty much screwed, forget about requesting courts martial. Buuuut, if the person just tries to wiezel his/her way out of trouble by going to legal or requesting courts martial, be VERY careful in what you wish for.
Then of course there is always that thing where people take responsibility for their actions and take a just punishment......that usually goes a long way in getting a reduced punishment. If it feels wrong, it probably is wrong, seek legal counsel, but don't be a dick about it.
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Absolutely not! He needs good legal advice. SIGN NOTHING BACKDATED! I'm a retired Master at Arms and they can do is document his previous infractions and what they did to resolve them on his referral to Mast. If the Command dropped the ball on couceling him properly, they don't have a case. Of, I don't know the anything about the event leading to this but, sounds to me they are trying to cover their ass.
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NOPE...if you don't address an issue when its hot (documentation) then you cannot go back and try to address it later accurately.
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I would say that most of the guys here are correct about backdating older violation. It would be fraud to back date it. I don't know what the statute of limitations are for the violations. It probably depends on the violation ,similar to the civilian counterpart. Checking with your command legal or JAG would be your best bet.
Then again it would also depends on what senior staff could "convince" the junior sailor to sign.
Then again it would also depends on what senior staff could "convince" the junior sailor to sign.
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Assuming you've discovered you can't trust your unit's legal officer to advise you (why else would you be asking here instead of their office?), the best I could tell you is to determine if it is "double indemnity" or not.. that should answer it all for you..
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SN Timothy Ehrenhaft
and, btw, verbals are worth the paper they're printed on.. if it's not in writing, i doesn't exist and never happened.. ;)
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No, it is False Official Statements by said COC but we know said Officers in COC will not be prosecuted.
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CPO David Sharp
PO1, Don't be too sure these "Officers" won't get punished. Navy Regs are very specific and in this case, there are violations. Hence my emphasis on JAG getting into the mix. I would consult them even once this matter gets thrown out. These individuals are not fit to be in a Command position and an Admiral's Mast is warranted for their actions.
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PO1 Craig Alley
Chief, I was with CID for 5 year. I have watched countless Officers do things and get a letter in jacket yes. Then saw a First Class wih18 years do the same thing, get reduce and has thousands so fair. Maybe up to the hundreds of thousands taking away in retirement from the reduction to E-5. Sorry double standards from the that truly are suppose to set the example. Respectfully
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