Posted on Dec 28, 2022
Can cruise missiles or drones have an alternate and inexpensive navigation system if GPS is jammed by the enemy?
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https://www.newscientist.com/article/2353060-russia-is-jamming-more-gps-satellite-signals-around-moscow/
I remember reading somewhere that cruise missiles in the past would have a digital picture copy of the target to verify which Target to destroy. I'm wondering if there is an alternate guidance system that could be put into drones that would do the same thing and look for the Target and it's database before actually hitting it. Does anybody know if other less reliable Technologies can get it close to the Target and then it looks for it before attacking?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2353060-russia-is-jamming-more-gps-satellite-signals-around-moscow/
I remember reading somewhere that cruise missiles in the past would have a digital picture copy of the target to verify which Target to destroy. I'm wondering if there is an alternate guidance system that could be put into drones that would do the same thing and look for the Target and it's database before actually hitting it. Does anybody know if other less reliable Technologies can get it close to the Target and then it looks for it before attacking?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2353060-russia-is-jamming-more-gps-satellite-signals-around-moscow/
Posted in these groups: 17J: Drone Aircraft Crewman
GPSElectronics TechnicianElectronic Countermeasures (ECM)
GPSElectronics TechnicianElectronic Countermeasures (ECM)
Posted 2 y ago
Responses: 8
Can they? Absolutely. Do they? Depends on the model.
Many drones use alternate (or even primary) internal navigation systems (INS) that can be accurate up to a half meter. Alternate guidance systems that couldn't be jammed include onboard gyroscopic stabilized on par with the one in this article* and terrain matching algorithms with an internal terrain database (without going into details ... think of a highly accurate LIDAR terrain database with a mission parameter profile).
Not a 'terrain' guy (other being intel), but being in charge for a while of NGA's support to the tactical Army gave more than I ever wanted to know about GIS, how it was integrated into current/future weapon systems, what databases are used, etc.
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* U of M high-accuracy gyroscope - https://www.fierceelectronics.com/sensors/gyroscope-allows-navigation-without-a-gps
* https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/what-lidar-data-and-where-can-i-download-it
Many drones use alternate (or even primary) internal navigation systems (INS) that can be accurate up to a half meter. Alternate guidance systems that couldn't be jammed include onboard gyroscopic stabilized on par with the one in this article* and terrain matching algorithms with an internal terrain database (without going into details ... think of a highly accurate LIDAR terrain database with a mission parameter profile).
Not a 'terrain' guy (other being intel), but being in charge for a while of NGA's support to the tactical Army gave more than I ever wanted to know about GIS, how it was integrated into current/future weapon systems, what databases are used, etc.
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* U of M high-accuracy gyroscope - https://www.fierceelectronics.com/sensors/gyroscope-allows-navigation-without-a-gps
* https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/what-lidar-data-and-where-can-i-download-it
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COL Randall C.
SFC Bernard Walko - Not really. Hyperaccurate gyroscopes run in the range of tens to hundreds of dollars. When you look at the cost of military drones (any where from tens of thousands of dollars on the low side to tens of millions for something like a Reaper) or cruise missiles ($1M+ each).
Adding and integrating something like a switchblade (~$35k) with a gyroscope would be easy and inexpensive. Putting a LIDAR on a larger system that matches to an existing terrain database with something <1m resolution would be simple but costs go up with the computing power necessary.
However, costs start rising quickly when you integrate it into mission planning such that you autonomously start using the positional data .. and goes up further if you need to make the system completely autonomous (or at least capable of doing autonomous operations if needed) --- that's why you start getting million dollar price tags on cruise missiles.
Adding and integrating something like a switchblade (~$35k) with a gyroscope would be easy and inexpensive. Putting a LIDAR on a larger system that matches to an existing terrain database with something <1m resolution would be simple but costs go up with the computing power necessary.
However, costs start rising quickly when you integrate it into mission planning such that you autonomously start using the positional data .. and goes up further if you need to make the system completely autonomous (or at least capable of doing autonomous operations if needed) --- that's why you start getting million dollar price tags on cruise missiles.
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I don't know about looking for a target, but GPS wasn't widely available until Desert Storm and we were still able to hit targets pretty accurately if we knew the coordinates. The Early Tomahawk Cruise Missiles used something called Digital Scene Matching Area Corellator (DSMAC). How that actually worked is beyond my paygrade.
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Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
Funny, in my early days at HQUSCENTCOM getting satellites reoriented so that planners could get the imagery needed to program cruise missles was a big issue.
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Simple answer: Paint the Target, Forward Observers.
GIS-guideance cannot be any more precise. And, that painting can be remotely done, even.
GIS-guideance cannot be any more precise. And, that painting can be remotely done, even.
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LTC (Join to see)
Clear and Present Danger (4/9) Movie CLIP - Bombing the Cartel (1994) HD
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My question was based on no forward Observer present to paint the target.
https://youtu.be/5XP3MonWebI
LTC Eugene Chu COL Randall C. Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen LTC Trent Klug CPT Lawrence Cable PFC Edgar Mosier SGT (Join to see)
https://youtu.be/5XP3MonWebI
LTC Eugene Chu COL Randall C. Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen LTC Trent Klug CPT Lawrence Cable PFC Edgar Mosier SGT (Join to see)
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PFC Edgar Mosier
LTC (Join to see) So, respectably, sir, why not just advance the state of warfare to either robots only on the battlefield or, another scenario (Star Trek suggested) where we let some computer fight a mock battle and the casualties volunteer to be vaporized.
But, another simple, non-Forward Observer-style example might be found via ancient mariners: star-charting and such. (Pardon my lack of basic navigating skills, please, but I'll lay odds, with such that I could write firmware for that missle.)
Science fiction is the challenge to the Engineers. Peace is the challenge to Mankind.
Remember, when The Lord's Prayer is given, His Will be done is a prayer to Armageddon, else how can It be done on Earth, as in Heaven?
But, another simple, non-Forward Observer-style example might be found via ancient mariners: star-charting and such. (Pardon my lack of basic navigating skills, please, but I'll lay odds, with such that I could write firmware for that missle.)
Science fiction is the challenge to the Engineers. Peace is the challenge to Mankind.
Remember, when The Lord's Prayer is given, His Will be done is a prayer to Armageddon, else how can It be done on Earth, as in Heaven?
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PFC Edgar Mosier
We don't know when that time comes. We may be 90 seconds to midnight like some scientists think but doesn't Armageddon or the end of time come like a thief in the night? Paraphrasing from the Bible.
I just think that we should be preparing for war instead of preparing for climate change.
A few weeks ago, Al Gore was bragging to the world body that we have over 300 billion dollars that we can put toward climate change mitigation when we could easily put that money toward defense and be prepared for the next War instead of wasting it on trying to cool the earth when nuclear war can do that for us.
When in peace, prepare for war. Our inept President Biden is preparing for climate change by pumping hundreds of billions of dollars that could be used to keep our ships at Sea instead of putting over 20 ships in the reserve Fleet. We could purchase more fighter planes and restock our ammunition depots instead of investing to bribe countries to get away from cheap fossil fuels like coal. We could keep the money in the US budget and not exceed our debt ceiling.
I know I'm covering a lot of topics here but the stupidity of our president and Democrat Administration has been rewarding and enticing our enemies like China and Russia to finish off their dreams of Conquest. Ukraine for Russia and Taiwan for communist China.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/110223-nuclear-war-winter-global-warming-environment-science-climate-change
I know about your analogy from Star Trek. Each side has their own people vaporized in their own extermination chamber.
Robots on the battlefield or blinding Soldiers with laser beams can happen in the next War. We already have seen modified 747s that have used lasers to shoot down incoming missiles. The technology is here.
LTC Eugene Chu COL Randall C. Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen SFC Bernard Walko LTC Trent Klug CPT Lawrence Cable PFC Edgar Mosier SGT (Join to see)
We don't know when that time comes. We may be 90 seconds to midnight like some scientists think but doesn't Armageddon or the end of time come like a thief in the night? Paraphrasing from the Bible.
I just think that we should be preparing for war instead of preparing for climate change.
A few weeks ago, Al Gore was bragging to the world body that we have over 300 billion dollars that we can put toward climate change mitigation when we could easily put that money toward defense and be prepared for the next War instead of wasting it on trying to cool the earth when nuclear war can do that for us.
When in peace, prepare for war. Our inept President Biden is preparing for climate change by pumping hundreds of billions of dollars that could be used to keep our ships at Sea instead of putting over 20 ships in the reserve Fleet. We could purchase more fighter planes and restock our ammunition depots instead of investing to bribe countries to get away from cheap fossil fuels like coal. We could keep the money in the US budget and not exceed our debt ceiling.
I know I'm covering a lot of topics here but the stupidity of our president and Democrat Administration has been rewarding and enticing our enemies like China and Russia to finish off their dreams of Conquest. Ukraine for Russia and Taiwan for communist China.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/110223-nuclear-war-winter-global-warming-environment-science-climate-change
I know about your analogy from Star Trek. Each side has their own people vaporized in their own extermination chamber.
Robots on the battlefield or blinding Soldiers with laser beams can happen in the next War. We already have seen modified 747s that have used lasers to shoot down incoming missiles. The technology is here.
LTC Eugene Chu COL Randall C. Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen SFC Bernard Walko LTC Trent Klug CPT Lawrence Cable PFC Edgar Mosier SGT (Join to see)
Regional nuclear war could trigger global cooling and famine
Even a limited nuclear conflict could spark "unprecedented climate change," U.S. government scientists warn.
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PFC Edgar Mosier
LTC (Join to see) Yes, and mutual destruction, burnt earth, or Armageddon... Faith in spineless liberals on either side of the House or Senate... But, everyone seems to have forgotten that ours, the Soldier's Oath, isn't to some deleted example of Democracy, but rather the unadulterated Constitution.
Col., Sir, I enjoy your insights, too.
Col., Sir, I enjoy your insights, too.
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