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I passed the board recently and now im being told i may have to be a CPL until i go to BLC or until i get back from ranger school. I dont want to take responsibility as a team leader and still get paid as a SPC. Can i deny a 4187 ?
Promotable
Promotions
CPL
Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 336
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Promotions, in part, are not about extra pay and other duties, it places one in the position to take care of others. Train them and drill them to get whatever the MOS may be to get the job done AND to make it home. Leadership is never about you, the pay, or a perfect performance evaluation. Uncle Sam places the lives of your people in your hands to fulfill the mission. Part of that mission is to bring’em home. What better way to take care of people than to be better trained yourself.
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Welcome to the new Army. If you dont take the Cpl you are stuck at specialist 4. Back in my day specialist went all the way to Spec 9. It was a way of rewarding the technical troops for their expertise.
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SGT Harrison, I hope that you didn’t deny your 4187 (since your profile says SGT I’m assuming you finished BLC or received a provisional early promotion). If you did and decide to stay in it may bite you in the future. I was a Corporal for a time, as well as a Sergeant from August 03 to October 06 (38 months) until I did something stupid trying to look out for my family and got myself demoted. That was bad enough, but then I let my pride & ego get in the way and refused to go back to the board and reacquire my rank. So now I am on here listed as a Specialist when I could have been listed as a Sergeant instead, that is just one way refusing something that is meant to help you and give you valuable experience can bite you in the future. You also lose pay & respect because you either think you are better than those you serve with or you are just a quitter (at least that is how they will see it). So as someone who is retired and spent most of his career performing duties 1-2 ranks above his pay grade you made a couple of stupid mistakes I am asking you to always accept the position/promotion (lateral, temporary, etc) that is offered to you because you never know how it will help you (or inspire your soldiers) in the long run (and getting in good with your superiors couldn’t hurt if you plan on making a career out of Government service after you leave the military either). In any case, Good Luck and stay frosty.
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That actually looks good for you. Before you start getting NCOER you get to practice what is expected of you.
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SMH; if you're in uniform for the money...you're in the wrong business. A million dollars is not worth losing your life or limb. My advice is take on the extra responsibility it will help you in the long haul (Col. 3:23). O'l boy how happy I was pinning on Corporal? When I got that on nobody could tell me anything. Just gimme the damn work and get out of my way.
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I just checked, and you don't get any more money for being a corporal or a Spec 4, it's just a patch, the pay is the same. However if you were getting Sargent/E5 that would be different, E5's make more than E 4's. I would take the CPL and keep my mouth shut, be thankful. If your going to a school it doesn't matter. If I was your CO I'd take away for you just asking the question.
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It's been a while since this question was posted, but I'll throw in my two cents for the benefit of anyone who's in a similar position.
You're looking at this from a position of how the world SHOULD work. I agree with you that it's stupid to give people more responsibility without giving them more compensation. More responsibility always equals more hours away from your family and not doing the things you want to do, and you should get more money for it.
That said, you're at a point in your career where you need to decide if you're going to make a career out of the Army or not. If this issue really pisses you off, I'd advise you to separate, because you're going to see this kind of bullshit your whole career. If this is something you can live with for the next 20 years and you want to be in the Army until retirement, take the team leader position and don't complain about it. Keep reading for my explanation:
Here's how the world REALLY works (in no particular order):
1. Taking on additional responsibility is an audition for your promotion.
2. You need to get a diverse experience to be the best leader you can be.
3. The Army runs on patronage and good-old-boy clubs from bottom to top (even with good leaders, but especially with bad ones), and this is about a lot more than just you (yes, politics).
Expanded explanations:
1. Taking on additional responsibility is an audition for your promotion.
Have you ever seen someone who was handed a position that just fucked it up constantly and either had to have everyone around them pull their weight? Or who was such a miserable piece of shit that everyone suffered because they were so terrible at their job? Having you do this job is an opportunity for leadership to evaluate your performance before giving you authority that would be a lot harder to take back later on. And NCOs can do a lot of damage if they suck at their jobs. If you're being offered a leadership position, your leaders have probably noticed you doing pretty good at your current job, so this is a serious compliment. It's an opportunity for you to shine and show them that they've picked the right guy for the job.
2. You need to get a diverse experience to be the best leader you can be.
I don't know how it is in your branch or unit, but every branch and unit has diverse roles to fill. Later on down the road you may be called to be a SHARP rep, an RTA, a readiness or training NCO, get sent to an S2 shop, or lots of other things. Many of these positions are important; some are just for compliance with regulations; some can be kind of pointless. But commanders are responsible for complying with regulations and orders, and every one of these positions is an opportunity to make sure the commander isn't getting his ass chewed. So the more of these positions you take (and mostly they'll be without extra pay and will require extra hours of work after the day's already done), the more well-rounded of a Soldier you'll be, and the more you can make sure your Joes are in compliance with them. It doesn't matter if you're a fire team leader or a meat gazer; it allows you to save your commander headaches.
3. The Army runs on patronage and good-old-boy clubs from bottom to top (even with good leaders, but especially with bad ones), and this is about a lot more than just you (yes, politics). In a larger sense, this isn't just about saving your commander an ass chewing today. It's also about your leaders knowing that you can be counted on to make the unit look good, and them building the leaders they need down the road. Your Company Commander today while you're a SPC may be a Battalion Commander down the road who needs a SSG or a SFC to head up a Platoon or a Company; and your PLT SGT or 1SG today may be a CSM down the road who needs a SFC down the road who he knows will make sure that a Platoon or a Company isn't going to make him look like a shitbag. Every position you take and execute faithfully builds a relationship with future leaders down the road. And as you execute, it makes leaders more willing to look at your NCOERs to make sure they shine; and it makes leaders start planning to get you schools and positions that will look good on your NCOERs down the road. I've been blessed with some really good leaders over the years who looked for opportunities to mentor me as I've progressed in my career; they've seen this as a way to make sure that the mission is accomplished and the unit is led by the most dedicated leaders so that their Soldiers don't get shat on by fucktarded leaders. I've also had some shitty leaders over the years, and any opportunity for advancement with that kind of leader is going to come after they ask themselves, "What has Sergeant Snuffy done for me lately?" Either way, if you want to advance in your career, you should look for opportunities to save your leaders headaches and make them look good, because once you hit a certain point, informal input from higher up is going to decide whether you get a particular position or whether you get blocked.
A lot of this political bullshit chaps my hide. I'm kind of known in my unit as the guy who's going to call a spade a spade, but I can usually articulate things such that I only piss off the truly shitty leaders. Good leaders are usually happy to have me around because when I call out bullshit they know it will save them headaches down the road (and it really helps that I'm wise enough not to call out bullshit in a setting where it will make them look bad). In reality, if I had my way, they'd bring back the Specialist ranks and I'd just be worried about the technical aspects of my job without having leadership responsibilities or worrying about promotions and all of that bullshit.
That said, if you have good leadership and you want to make a career out of the Army, you'll want to take the above into consideration. It'll open up opportunities for you so that you can make sure the Soldiers you lead are taken care of right and the shitty leaders don't fuck things up too bad for everyone. If you can't handle the politics (no judgment here if that's not your thing; I suck at politics myself) or you have shitty leaders you can't/don't trust, or you just don't want to put in all the extra hours every week for the next 20 years, I'd separate and find somewhere else to work. It'll save you a lot of frustration. Just a fair word of warning, in my experience, most promotions will get you something like a 10 percent raise in pay and a 50 percent raise in responsibility.
You're looking at this from a position of how the world SHOULD work. I agree with you that it's stupid to give people more responsibility without giving them more compensation. More responsibility always equals more hours away from your family and not doing the things you want to do, and you should get more money for it.
That said, you're at a point in your career where you need to decide if you're going to make a career out of the Army or not. If this issue really pisses you off, I'd advise you to separate, because you're going to see this kind of bullshit your whole career. If this is something you can live with for the next 20 years and you want to be in the Army until retirement, take the team leader position and don't complain about it. Keep reading for my explanation:
Here's how the world REALLY works (in no particular order):
1. Taking on additional responsibility is an audition for your promotion.
2. You need to get a diverse experience to be the best leader you can be.
3. The Army runs on patronage and good-old-boy clubs from bottom to top (even with good leaders, but especially with bad ones), and this is about a lot more than just you (yes, politics).
Expanded explanations:
1. Taking on additional responsibility is an audition for your promotion.
Have you ever seen someone who was handed a position that just fucked it up constantly and either had to have everyone around them pull their weight? Or who was such a miserable piece of shit that everyone suffered because they were so terrible at their job? Having you do this job is an opportunity for leadership to evaluate your performance before giving you authority that would be a lot harder to take back later on. And NCOs can do a lot of damage if they suck at their jobs. If you're being offered a leadership position, your leaders have probably noticed you doing pretty good at your current job, so this is a serious compliment. It's an opportunity for you to shine and show them that they've picked the right guy for the job.
2. You need to get a diverse experience to be the best leader you can be.
I don't know how it is in your branch or unit, but every branch and unit has diverse roles to fill. Later on down the road you may be called to be a SHARP rep, an RTA, a readiness or training NCO, get sent to an S2 shop, or lots of other things. Many of these positions are important; some are just for compliance with regulations; some can be kind of pointless. But commanders are responsible for complying with regulations and orders, and every one of these positions is an opportunity to make sure the commander isn't getting his ass chewed. So the more of these positions you take (and mostly they'll be without extra pay and will require extra hours of work after the day's already done), the more well-rounded of a Soldier you'll be, and the more you can make sure your Joes are in compliance with them. It doesn't matter if you're a fire team leader or a meat gazer; it allows you to save your commander headaches.
3. The Army runs on patronage and good-old-boy clubs from bottom to top (even with good leaders, but especially with bad ones), and this is about a lot more than just you (yes, politics). In a larger sense, this isn't just about saving your commander an ass chewing today. It's also about your leaders knowing that you can be counted on to make the unit look good, and them building the leaders they need down the road. Your Company Commander today while you're a SPC may be a Battalion Commander down the road who needs a SSG or a SFC to head up a Platoon or a Company; and your PLT SGT or 1SG today may be a CSM down the road who needs a SFC down the road who he knows will make sure that a Platoon or a Company isn't going to make him look like a shitbag. Every position you take and execute faithfully builds a relationship with future leaders down the road. And as you execute, it makes leaders more willing to look at your NCOERs to make sure they shine; and it makes leaders start planning to get you schools and positions that will look good on your NCOERs down the road. I've been blessed with some really good leaders over the years who looked for opportunities to mentor me as I've progressed in my career; they've seen this as a way to make sure that the mission is accomplished and the unit is led by the most dedicated leaders so that their Soldiers don't get shat on by fucktarded leaders. I've also had some shitty leaders over the years, and any opportunity for advancement with that kind of leader is going to come after they ask themselves, "What has Sergeant Snuffy done for me lately?" Either way, if you want to advance in your career, you should look for opportunities to save your leaders headaches and make them look good, because once you hit a certain point, informal input from higher up is going to decide whether you get a particular position or whether you get blocked.
A lot of this political bullshit chaps my hide. I'm kind of known in my unit as the guy who's going to call a spade a spade, but I can usually articulate things such that I only piss off the truly shitty leaders. Good leaders are usually happy to have me around because when I call out bullshit they know it will save them headaches down the road (and it really helps that I'm wise enough not to call out bullshit in a setting where it will make them look bad). In reality, if I had my way, they'd bring back the Specialist ranks and I'd just be worried about the technical aspects of my job without having leadership responsibilities or worrying about promotions and all of that bullshit.
That said, if you have good leadership and you want to make a career out of the Army, you'll want to take the above into consideration. It'll open up opportunities for you so that you can make sure the Soldiers you lead are taken care of right and the shitty leaders don't fuck things up too bad for everyone. If you can't handle the politics (no judgment here if that's not your thing; I suck at politics myself) or you have shitty leaders you can't/don't trust, or you just don't want to put in all the extra hours every week for the next 20 years, I'd separate and find somewhere else to work. It'll save you a lot of frustration. Just a fair word of warning, in my experience, most promotions will get you something like a 10 percent raise in pay and a 50 percent raise in responsibility.
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Why would you ask a question like that when you are using SGT as you rank? Are you being demoted from SGT to CPL? Or are you an acting jack SGT as a true SPC? If you are actually a SPC being laterally promoted to CPL. Then yes you could possibly decline your promotion to CPL. But you'll have to explain to your command for your refusal. Since you may or may not be a team ldr using SGT rank. Or did I miss something? My son was made a Tm ldr as a SPC and was never offered CPL stripes before being deployed to Iraq, A-1/27th Inf., 172nd Inf Bde. Some infantry units use them others don't. Take the responsibility. It will help in your life later in or out of service. I was made an acting jack CPL as a PFC because of the job I had any the people I dealt with. Some ppl were more apt to dealing with an NCO than with a private. When I deployed to Germany in 2985. I had to revert back to PFC rank. You may have to suck it up and drive or you may not be able to become an NCO for a longer time afterwards because of your refusal to take the responsibility of a team leader.
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