Posted on Jul 7, 2014
Can I receive a 3/3 NCOER if I did not receive any NCOER support counseling, or any sort of written counseling?
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Can I receive a 3/3 ncoer if I did not receive any ncoer support counselings, or any sort of written counselings? If I already signed my ncoer is it already too late?
Posted in these groups: 
NCOER
Counseling
NCOER Counseling
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 10
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Yes, you can receive a 3/3 without counseling - it is a failure of leadership to develop you and, coincidentally, that leadership should be held accountable under the leadership &/or training portion of their report card.
1SG Brown is correct that a 3/3 NCOER is technically a successful NCOER however, a 3/3 will slow you down as far as promotions are concerned, and it should. Remain professional with me, and keep reading as I will try to impart on you some a little knowledge on this.
I suggest you spend an hour or so and get into the regulation (623-3) and DA Pamphlet as well to actually read the section on the appeals process as well as read what's written about counseling for it states that lack of counseling is not a justification for an appeal.
When you sign your report, you indicate that your admin data is correct and that the report is complete (you must ensure accuracy before signing). An isolated 3/3 NCOER will slow down your promotion insomuch as you are competing against your peers, if it is isolated then it could be discounted at the board however, if there is a trend where your reports have multiple 2/3 or 3/2 type reports (documented or written - you can tell the level of the report regardless of the numerical markings given by the Senior Rater), with multiple entries it will show the board that you are a marginal performer and to promote only when there are sufficient allocations.....not many branches will have that many opportunities to reach our and promote 3/3 performers.
What this does mean, you have an opportunity right here. You are PCS'ing and take this opportunity to get into your profession, develop yourself and your subordinates and learn from whatever you were doing that was not as successful at the last duty station and fix it. If you plan on staying in, then get in the fight and develop yourself, of not for the promotion potential, do it because of your professionalism, for your family name and for the country - we all depend on you to do your duty.
1SG Brown is correct that a 3/3 NCOER is technically a successful NCOER however, a 3/3 will slow you down as far as promotions are concerned, and it should. Remain professional with me, and keep reading as I will try to impart on you some a little knowledge on this.
I suggest you spend an hour or so and get into the regulation (623-3) and DA Pamphlet as well to actually read the section on the appeals process as well as read what's written about counseling for it states that lack of counseling is not a justification for an appeal.
When you sign your report, you indicate that your admin data is correct and that the report is complete (you must ensure accuracy before signing). An isolated 3/3 NCOER will slow down your promotion insomuch as you are competing against your peers, if it is isolated then it could be discounted at the board however, if there is a trend where your reports have multiple 2/3 or 3/2 type reports (documented or written - you can tell the level of the report regardless of the numerical markings given by the Senior Rater), with multiple entries it will show the board that you are a marginal performer and to promote only when there are sufficient allocations.....not many branches will have that many opportunities to reach our and promote 3/3 performers.
What this does mean, you have an opportunity right here. You are PCS'ing and take this opportunity to get into your profession, develop yourself and your subordinates and learn from whatever you were doing that was not as successful at the last duty station and fix it. If you plan on staying in, then get in the fight and develop yourself, of not for the promotion potential, do it because of your professionalism, for your family name and for the country - we all depend on you to do your duty.
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CSM Michael J. Uhlig
Your challenge is to improve your performance, one thing that will help tremendously is to get involved in the unit - to include seeing where you can help in organizations such as the FRGs as well as helping out the community.
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COL Vincent Stoneking
SSG Stevens,
To add to what CSM Uhlig said, you have another opportunity with this PCS - to start with a clean slate.
You should be given an initial counseling. If not, or if it is perfunctory, I would recommend sitting down with your new rater and SR and saying something along the lines of "I was surprised and disappointed with my last performance evaluation. It was out of line with how I view myself and what I expect of myself. I intend to fix that and demonstrate my value to this unit and this Army. What are your expectations of a 1/1 performer?" Then do the things they say.
In a perfect world, you wouldn't have to "demand" counseling, but we liven the world we have.
To add to what CSM Uhlig said, you have another opportunity with this PCS - to start with a clean slate.
You should be given an initial counseling. If not, or if it is perfunctory, I would recommend sitting down with your new rater and SR and saying something along the lines of "I was surprised and disappointed with my last performance evaluation. It was out of line with how I view myself and what I expect of myself. I intend to fix that and demonstrate my value to this unit and this Army. What are your expectations of a 1/1 performer?" Then do the things they say.
In a perfect world, you wouldn't have to "demand" counseling, but we liven the world we have.
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SFC (Join to see)
I agree with the CSM about empowering yourself with knowledge, this is where so many fail themselves.
However I do have one question and I ask this often because I see it far too often. When you signed the NCOER as stated above you are stating that the Admin data on the front is correct. Part of that Admin data is the counseling dates where your rater was bound by regulation to counsel you. We're there dates there and did you actually receive those counselings? If those were BS dates as is often the case because raters fail to do their jobs, then it is false and an integrity violation on the part of the rater and therefore should not have been signed.
In many cases I have dealt with once that matter is brought to light and the rater is faced with the reality that they were derelict in their duties, they will reconsider the rating to avoid a possible IG complaint.
This has nothing to do with your actual performance, this has to do with doing the right thing.
However I do have one question and I ask this often because I see it far too often. When you signed the NCOER as stated above you are stating that the Admin data on the front is correct. Part of that Admin data is the counseling dates where your rater was bound by regulation to counsel you. We're there dates there and did you actually receive those counselings? If those were BS dates as is often the case because raters fail to do their jobs, then it is false and an integrity violation on the part of the rater and therefore should not have been signed.
In many cases I have dealt with once that matter is brought to light and the rater is faced with the reality that they were derelict in their duties, they will reconsider the rating to avoid a possible IG complaint.
This has nothing to do with your actual performance, this has to do with doing the right thing.
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SFC (Join to see)
This is an awesome response and absolutely correct. I wholeheartedly agree that the leader that failed to counsel you should be held accountable and I have done that with a "needs improvement" in Leadership on their support form. You counsel and NCO and tell them that they are currently at a "needs improvement" level and watch how fast they fix themself.
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SSG Stevens- I agree with everyone else that yes a 3/3 is still technically good and can be given without counseling. Counseling is as much your responsibility as your leaders and you can feel free to ask for counseling at anytime to ensure you are on the path to get the NCOER that you desire...don't wait for a quarterly counseling, ask for it every month!!!!
Also keep in mind that signing an NCOER is not saying you agree with it. It means the Admin information is correct and you understand the appeals process. I've seen a 3/3 over turned but the soldier had all kinds of ducks in a row...it's not easy and in most cases fruitless to try.
I write my own NCOER for my rater. I do this by writing bullets for myself as events come up through out my rating period. During my counseling I give bullets to my rater for my support form. At the end of the rating period I look at what I have...combine the bullets I can for stronger bullets and then stick them on an NCOER. At this point my rater should only have to verify the bullets on the support form, tweek what is needed and send it forward. It's your career take charge!!!
Also keep in mind that signing an NCOER is not saying you agree with it. It means the Admin information is correct and you understand the appeals process. I've seen a 3/3 over turned but the soldier had all kinds of ducks in a row...it's not easy and in most cases fruitless to try.
I write my own NCOER for my rater. I do this by writing bullets for myself as events come up through out my rating period. During my counseling I give bullets to my rater for my support form. At the end of the rating period I look at what I have...combine the bullets I can for stronger bullets and then stick them on an NCOER. At this point my rater should only have to verify the bullets on the support form, tweek what is needed and send it forward. It's your career take charge!!!
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MSG(P) Michael Warrick
SSG Stevens and SFC Emily Weseman - I do agree that the Soldier has just as much responsibility to want to receive his counseling to ensure his success as a Soldier. I do not agree that a 3/3 is technically sound. To me in my opinion a 3/3 is border line or just a average Soldier that has no desire to excel,
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Technically, a 3/3 is still a successful NCOER. Of course, we all know that it is pretty much saying do not promote. When you sign your NCOER, you are certifying certain information, including the counseling dates on the front of your NCOER. Were the dates on there? I would not personally sign an NCOER like that if I knew it was bad, had received zero counseling, but the rater filled in dates as if he'd done the counseling. That said, the senior rater can still give a 3/3, though I think you might have a legitimate reason for appealing, especially if you had not been counseled during the rating period to point out your weak areas and where you need to improve. We owe it to our subordinates to provide proper feedback, not wait until the end of the rating period and drop a poor NCOER on them.
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SSG (Join to see)
Ok, I was wondering about the appeals process. Yes I did sign, but at the time I was in 1sg's office with my rater. they where both basically telling me that a 3/3 isn't bad and how it wouldn't affect my career. it was the day before I started my pcs leave and I honestly just wanted to get out of there. I know that I don't deserve a 1/1 because I did make some mistakes. but I don't feel like I deserved that bad of a score. I never once received any sort of counseling from my rater or anyone else for that matter. I'm just not sure if it's already too late because I signed it
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