Posted on Apr 25, 2018
Can my son fight being chaptered out after drug use and DUI?
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My son is relatively new to the army. He has made a couple of bad choices. He used an illegal drug. It seemed as though the punishment was going to be minor. But a few weeks later he was caught drinking and driving. He was told that he would be transferred to another base and put in Substance Abuse program. Now they are telling him he will probably be chaptered out. Is there anything he can do? I realize you don't know my son and as a dad I am biased but he is really a good kid. Up until these two offenses he had been doing really well. Do they have to give him a chance at rehab before they chapter him out?
Parenting
Drugs
Alcohol
Discharge
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 177
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Sir, with all due respect, I don't know you, I don't know your son, he's new to the military and he's already committed two major offenses. Likely not originated by military life. I'm not in the business of giving advice to keep your son in. I would be trying to get him OUT. He can only put others in harms way, others who can't afford to manage him while fighting a bigger enemy. Yes, the Army and every service should be chaptering him out for the good of this nation.
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SFC (Join to see)
In my entire Military career, I would say that making bad choices are mile stones of growing up. I understand as a parent, we want the best for our children. In this scenario(s) your son has made multiple bad decisions and hope that he can learn from it. However, recovery from these incidents would not be in the military. In my personal opinion, I’ve had witnessed great NCOs/Officers have been chapter out of the military and the ones that are allowed to remain in service has watered down our very corps values. The thought of doing illegal drugs while serving in uniform is a disrespect to the military and to all that honorably served before me. I wish your son the best in his future endeavors but his chance to prove him worthy has passed. SFC Nguyen SSG Brandon Parker
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CPL (Join to see)
Just happen to come across this and csm durr I’ve seen officers and senior ncos do the exact same thing over and over again and the army kept trying to send them to different rehabs to help them out but they would always come back and either get a dui or fail a ua so I mean would you have the same approach with a snco has you would with a junior enlisted
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If the command has decided to chapter him, he'll be chaptered. He can't stop it.
I have no doubt that your son is a good kid, but unfortunately he's providing more than sufficient evidence that he is not a good soldier. The first mistake (illegal drug use) was his opportunity to correct his path. His second mistake (drinking and driving) sealed his doom. That indicates a pattern of poor judgment, so he'll need to find another career choice. The military has a low tolerance for substance abuse issues.
I have no doubt that your son is a good kid, but unfortunately he's providing more than sufficient evidence that he is not a good soldier. The first mistake (illegal drug use) was his opportunity to correct his path. His second mistake (drinking and driving) sealed his doom. That indicates a pattern of poor judgment, so he'll need to find another career choice. The military has a low tolerance for substance abuse issues.
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SPC(P) Warren Soriano
CDR (Join to see) - Agreed, Sir. The SM probably joined the service to turn a new leaf, but he's an addict. As a lower EM, I knew a few guys like that, but they persevered and were good soldiers. Many people think enlisting in the military is an easy fix. Screwed up life? Join the US Army. Someone who can't manage their life as a civilian thinks they can manage it in a strict and disciplined environment (w/ severe consequences)? It's not for everyone.
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1SG Tom Carter
1LT (Join to see) - He probably would have been if it was only one incident, but after the second...
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If the command has made the choice to go this route, there isn't much he can do. He could go to JAG, but it would probably make little to no difference. Your son made the decisions and now he has to live with the consequences of those choices. Honestly, he was given one more chance than I would have given him. If I was his Sergeant, my recommendation would be max him and put him out.
We all sign a paper when we enlist that says we cannot do drugs. If someone does, then that is on them. The DUI is something talked about ad nauseum at every safety brief. Again, that is on them. This sounds cold, I know, but the rules are clearly spelled out and not difficult to follow.
Just because he made a few mistakes, does not mean that he is a bad kid. He just did some really stupid things. Being chaptered out isn't the end of the world. I know many who have been chaptered that went on to happy productive lives afterwards. Some people just aren't cut out to be Soldiers, and that is okay. I wasn't either. The only difference is I got out on my own terms a bit later on.
We all sign a paper when we enlist that says we cannot do drugs. If someone does, then that is on them. The DUI is something talked about ad nauseum at every safety brief. Again, that is on them. This sounds cold, I know, but the rules are clearly spelled out and not difficult to follow.
Just because he made a few mistakes, does not mean that he is a bad kid. He just did some really stupid things. Being chaptered out isn't the end of the world. I know many who have been chaptered that went on to happy productive lives afterwards. Some people just aren't cut out to be Soldiers, and that is okay. I wasn't either. The only difference is I got out on my own terms a bit later on.
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SP5 Shelly Forbes-Hunter
SFC Charles McVey Sr. - I think the use of the word "perversion" is not helpful towards a meaningful communication. (My 2 cents) .....
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MSgt Kerry Lundy
SPC Chris Ison - There is a simple solution. You are a male who thinks he is a female or vice versa get the surgery and all the post surgery care and ongoing hormone and mental therapy ( could be years of treatment) then enlist once you are declared to no longer need said therapy. Why should the taxpayers pickup the tab for a person's extremely expensive elective desires?
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SPC Chris Ison
One could make the argument that it is not elective surgery, if it makes the person whole. Tonsillectomies, Lasik, Vasectomies, etc are all "elective" surgeries.
The very fact that they are willing to serve, is why the tax payer should foot the bill.
You act like they are not performing the job. One can perform the job and still see a fucking shrink, that does not interfere with readiness or the ability to do the job. The only reason psychiatric care is needed is to help them during the transition.
furthermore, not every person undergoes complete sexual reassignment surgery, so even within the TG community, there is a variance of what they wish to have done.
The military has always been in the business of trading an enlistment for money. That is why they have the GI bill, and why they pay for advanced schooling for docotr's and lawyers.
The very fact that they are willing to serve, is why the tax payer should foot the bill.
You act like they are not performing the job. One can perform the job and still see a fucking shrink, that does not interfere with readiness or the ability to do the job. The only reason psychiatric care is needed is to help them during the transition.
furthermore, not every person undergoes complete sexual reassignment surgery, so even within the TG community, there is a variance of what they wish to have done.
The military has always been in the business of trading an enlistment for money. That is why they have the GI bill, and why they pay for advanced schooling for docotr's and lawyers.
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Cpl James Graves
I was in the Marine Corps. In my time (67-70) if I had been a good Marine to that point and gotten into a little trouble my squad leader would have been right in my corner, and perhaps even company 1st Sargent. But the drug issue would probably nix that. You can't have anything like that in the field. Too many other Marines count on you to be able to perform and it's not fair to them to have someone with a substance abuse problem in the squad, platoon or the unit as a whole.
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Wait - he WAS given a chance after the illegal drug use (he was offered rehab) - then he made yet another bad choice (he probably made several, but happened to get caught drinking and driving) - I see no other choice for the Army - and as a father, I cannot see how you would WANT any individual like this to be protecting our country!? Son or not? Military members are held to higher standards for a reason!
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COL William Oseles
(Join to see) - There is nothing wrong with CMSgt Schubert's reading comprehension.
"But a few weeks later he was caught drinking and driving."
When he was busted for "Illegal drug use" he would have been Counseled he needed to stay out of further drug and alcohol abuse problems. You do not say but I expect he lost a stripe over that on and even if he didn't the discussion would have been very clear that it could see him kicked out of the Army if repeated.
Back when they Army had trouble getting people in he "might" have been given a third chance but those days are LONG gone.
"But a few weeks later he was caught drinking and driving."
When he was busted for "Illegal drug use" he would have been Counseled he needed to stay out of further drug and alcohol abuse problems. You do not say but I expect he lost a stripe over that on and even if he didn't the discussion would have been very clear that it could see him kicked out of the Army if repeated.
Back when they Army had trouble getting people in he "might" have been given a third chance but those days are LONG gone.
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SFC Charles McVey Sr.
MSgt Paul Connors - It is also against both DOD and DA Regulations, and the person who recruited them should also face disciplinary action.
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SFC Charles McVey Sr.
DOD does have a regulations as does the USAF, and having seen some Gang bangers since my retirement, I am sure that they had some gang tattoos located some where on their body, even those who have only been in a gang for a few weeks have already received at least on tat so that their fellow gang members know that they are members of that gang. There are numerous FBI reports as well as DHS reports that back up what I have just stated regarding a gang member getting his gang tat.
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If he used an illegal substance, he has no leg to stand on. He is going to get chaptered out. After doing drugs and a DUI, he should be happy to get out with just a other than honorable discharge from his chapter. He could get a lot worse.
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To all who took time to reply, thank you! Obviously it was not all pleasant to hear but expected. Yes, he made the choices and now he has to live with those consequences. He has told us now that he has spoken with a lawyer and is getting some help. I would really like to help him with a swift kick in the rear end. Again thanks!
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Brad Miller
Sometimes "this is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you" is really true about tough love. Sometimes, tough love is the only thing that (finally) gets through. Good luck w/your lad.
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2ndLt Fulton Recepcion
Everyone makes mistakes or bad choices (intentional or not) in their life. Being a "good kid" does not equate to being perfect and/or infallible.
As I said in a separate comment, if he wants to fight it, he has to find a compelling argument to remain in the service. Having been warned about the consequences of illegal drug use since he signed the papers with the recruiter and continued warnings since Basic Training, and two offenses, he doesn't have much of a case.
All he can do is plan to rebuild his life after the service.
As I said in a separate comment, if he wants to fight it, he has to find a compelling argument to remain in the service. Having been warned about the consequences of illegal drug use since he signed the papers with the recruiter and continued warnings since Basic Training, and two offenses, he doesn't have much of a case.
All he can do is plan to rebuild his life after the service.
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MSG Johnathan Mathes
Sir
Sometimes kids like to live on the edge a little to much... a swift kick is definitely needed... however would it fix the problem? He was already reduced in rank ... had money taken.. probably was restricted and had some kind of extra duty... if that didn’t work ... not sure what would..... he is being chartered because he can not be relied on to do his assigned tasks... which in a grander scheme may get some one hurt or injuried.. we al want to protect our sons , that’s another reason we put out the kids who can adapt and leave the bad stuff behind... he will have a hard row to hoe... but hopefully you can get him back on the right path
Sometimes kids like to live on the edge a little to much... a swift kick is definitely needed... however would it fix the problem? He was already reduced in rank ... had money taken.. probably was restricted and had some kind of extra duty... if that didn’t work ... not sure what would..... he is being chartered because he can not be relied on to do his assigned tasks... which in a grander scheme may get some one hurt or injuried.. we al want to protect our sons , that’s another reason we put out the kids who can adapt and leave the bad stuff behind... he will have a hard row to hoe... but hopefully you can get him back on the right path
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"but he is really a good kid" ahhhh I can't tell you how many times I have heard this from concerned parents/relatives. Unfortunately, There are too many factors that are unfavorable for him.
1. If it was just the one-time positive urinalysis for THC...I would recommend Outpatient-ASAP, Mandatory Reoccuring Urinalysis and likely a Field Grade Article 15....which means he will likely get reduced to PVT (E-1), Do 45 days of Extra Duty and 45 days Restriction with Retention. By Regulation a Chapter Separation must be started, this doesn't mean he will be separated. In this case, the Company Commander makes the recommendation and then it would go to the BN Commander/Troop Commander for approval/disapproval and disposition. This can go either way, but I can tell you this...It is LIKELY that the recommendation from the Company Commander will get executed.
2. DUIs are another story entirely. When I was a Commander, DUIs were handled by the INSTALLATION COMMANDER (usually the 1st 1-Star or 2-Star General in the chain of command). Company Commanders, Battalion Commanders, and Brigade Commanders really have no say in the disposition. For Officers and Senior Enlisted this will likely result in a GOLOR...(General Officer Letter of Reprimand) which in many cases is a career ender.
3. These wounds were self-inflicted and could have been prevented by using good judgment. Like another poster said, We get briefed on these at nausea, so there really is no excuse for it. This is a direct slap in the face to his Leadership. It is unlikely, although it can happen, that the Leadership failed him. I can guarantee his NCOs/PSG/1SG and PLT LDR are livid!!!
4. He is considered a repeat offender and a disciplinary problem, which means he can get Chaptered based on that alone. "Failure to follow instructions, SOPs, policies, or regulations" I am sorry, this is not what you want to hear, but from a Commander's perspective, "he is NOT really a good kid"
Lastly, The focus now needs to be on which chapter, what characterization and the re-enlistment code. I don't see this as a Chapter 10 (Bad Conduct Discharge)...but likely a Chapter 14, which in some cases he can come back in the Armed Forces after a period of time with a clean record, depends on the above. A Chapter 14 with a General Discharge and a favorable re-up code.
http://military-attorneys.us/Military-RE-Codes.html
1. If it was just the one-time positive urinalysis for THC...I would recommend Outpatient-ASAP, Mandatory Reoccuring Urinalysis and likely a Field Grade Article 15....which means he will likely get reduced to PVT (E-1), Do 45 days of Extra Duty and 45 days Restriction with Retention. By Regulation a Chapter Separation must be started, this doesn't mean he will be separated. In this case, the Company Commander makes the recommendation and then it would go to the BN Commander/Troop Commander for approval/disapproval and disposition. This can go either way, but I can tell you this...It is LIKELY that the recommendation from the Company Commander will get executed.
2. DUIs are another story entirely. When I was a Commander, DUIs were handled by the INSTALLATION COMMANDER (usually the 1st 1-Star or 2-Star General in the chain of command). Company Commanders, Battalion Commanders, and Brigade Commanders really have no say in the disposition. For Officers and Senior Enlisted this will likely result in a GOLOR...(General Officer Letter of Reprimand) which in many cases is a career ender.
3. These wounds were self-inflicted and could have been prevented by using good judgment. Like another poster said, We get briefed on these at nausea, so there really is no excuse for it. This is a direct slap in the face to his Leadership. It is unlikely, although it can happen, that the Leadership failed him. I can guarantee his NCOs/PSG/1SG and PLT LDR are livid!!!
4. He is considered a repeat offender and a disciplinary problem, which means he can get Chaptered based on that alone. "Failure to follow instructions, SOPs, policies, or regulations" I am sorry, this is not what you want to hear, but from a Commander's perspective, "he is NOT really a good kid"
Lastly, The focus now needs to be on which chapter, what characterization and the re-enlistment code. I don't see this as a Chapter 10 (Bad Conduct Discharge)...but likely a Chapter 14, which in some cases he can come back in the Armed Forces after a period of time with a clean record, depends on the above. A Chapter 14 with a General Discharge and a favorable re-up code.
http://military-attorneys.us/Military-RE-Codes.html
Military Reenlistment Codes | RE Code DD214 | Army Navy Air Force Marines Coast Guard
Military Reenlistment codes Military records mistake? Find a Discharge Upgrade Lawyer. If you or a loved one needs a correction of militray records contact Military Attorneys online.
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SGT (Join to see)
Additionally, being a really good kid does not translate to being a really good soldier. Soldiering is not for everyone.
Also, he should talk to legal.
Also, he should talk to legal.
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SrA David Heineken
I'm glad I didn't have the money for a car my first couple of years in! Staggering back from the club was dangerous enough! As far as drugs they have been very clear about that for a long time. Your son may be a fine young man, however he is obviously lacking the self control to be a soldier. He needs to realize this and learn from his mistake.
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A simple answer and comment, because most everyone has already answered your question...my answer is NO! Worse thing about it, unless he gets himself together, THIS will bite him in the butt in the civilian world.
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It doesn't look very good because of how close the two incidents are. If he gets notification of separation, he will at least have a chance to respond to the incidents. He should probably consult with either TDS, Legal Assistance, or a civilian attorney immediately to see what he can do to set himself back on the right path. He also needs to straighten up immediately and start performing.
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From the point of view as a PSG, I have read the responses everyone has given and yes they seem harsh but let me explain it from a different angle. What our jobs are and our duty to our country, we do not have time for individuals to keep acting as though they are still civilians. We are expected to be ready to defend at a drop of a hat, a moments notice. From the time we enter into basic then go through advanced individual training (AIT), that is suppose to de-civilianize us and we be militarized. Unfortunately not everyone gets it. Military is not for everyone.
Being a PSG, I have had to work hand in hand with my company commander when he was faced with decisions regarding soldiers and misconduct. I am sure from what I have witnessed, it was not an easy task for him to decide the fate of someone's career but then I realized, it isn't the commander making that decision. It is the individual soldier making that decision when they choose to act without considering consequences.
I need my soldiers to be able to listen to simple orders and to follow them. Not half heartedly listen and do what they choose. Our lives depend on us all being able to conform to the lifestyle, follow orders and execute.
Being a PSG, I have had to work hand in hand with my company commander when he was faced with decisions regarding soldiers and misconduct. I am sure from what I have witnessed, it was not an easy task for him to decide the fate of someone's career but then I realized, it isn't the commander making that decision. It is the individual soldier making that decision when they choose to act without considering consequences.
I need my soldiers to be able to listen to simple orders and to follow them. Not half heartedly listen and do what they choose. Our lives depend on us all being able to conform to the lifestyle, follow orders and execute.
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