Posted on Jan 25, 2021
Can your 1SG require max correspondence hours in order for your recommendation for the promotion board?
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Today, my 1sg put out a memo stating new requirements to be recommended for the promotion boards. Granted, I actually agree with most of the requirements, but there is one that I fully do not agree with. That is he is forcing all Soldiers to have max hours or he will not recommend us for the board. I already have my P status and am almost complete with BLC (graduate this week), but my Soldier was going to go to the board for February and now, he will not be. 91S only needs 40 points for promotion...
Edit: This is for secondary zone promotion, not primary.
Last Edit: I see that most higher enlisted (mostly retired) all agree with this decision. Maybe it is just a generation thing that I cannot comprehend.
Edit: This is for secondary zone promotion, not primary.
Last Edit: I see that most higher enlisted (mostly retired) all agree with this decision. Maybe it is just a generation thing that I cannot comprehend.
Edited 5 y ago
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 12
Each board member gets a yes or no vote. Your 1SG is just one vote. The Soldier still has to be boarded, and if they perform well, his vote won't matter. If the Soldier performs poorly enough for his one vote to matter, then they don't need promoted anyway.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SGT (Join to see) - there's no choice. Soldiers in their Primary zone HAVE to be boarded if they're not flagged. He doesn't get a vote on that.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SGT (Join to see) - Ah, in that case, he's not entitled to go to the board, so the requirement makes sense. Secondary zone boarding is a reward for exemplary performance, not an entitlement. The Soldiers will go once they hit primary, they just won't go early.
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I'd also like to recommend you take as many courses as you can when you can.
As you get higher in rank in your career, certain courses will no longer be open to you. Or, your chain of command might not be supportive of pushing you through courses. Once those windows of opportunity are gone, then they are gone. It's rare to find the person with as much concern about his subordinates career success as his own.
Because where it matters, is your Soldier Record Brief. Stack that as deep as you can with as much as you can (courses, awards, assignments, civilian education). Once that lower level education gets on there early in your career it's on there. There's go going backwards in time when you are a higher rank or higher trained to get lower level courses on there. So don't pass up the easy development while you can.
The system is designed to reward those that do.
Look at the Bio's or SRB's of CSM's or COLs. They played the game from E1 and O1.
As you get higher in rank in your career, certain courses will no longer be open to you. Or, your chain of command might not be supportive of pushing you through courses. Once those windows of opportunity are gone, then they are gone. It's rare to find the person with as much concern about his subordinates career success as his own.
Because where it matters, is your Soldier Record Brief. Stack that as deep as you can with as much as you can (courses, awards, assignments, civilian education). Once that lower level education gets on there early in your career it's on there. There's go going backwards in time when you are a higher rank or higher trained to get lower level courses on there. So don't pass up the easy development while you can.
The system is designed to reward those that do.
Look at the Bio's or SRB's of CSM's or COLs. They played the game from E1 and O1.
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Whether or not your 1SG recommends that you go to the board or not, you are required to attend the board once you are in your primary zone. You may be waivered to attend in the secondary zone, and that's what your 1SG is saying the requirement is to get his sponsorship for a waiver to attend the board before you hit your primary zone
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SGT (Join to see)
Guess this is just a generation thing that I cannot comprehend. Never will I believe that c-hours will make someone a better leader. Thanks for the input, however!
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1SG Billye Jackson
So in todays Army if you have Time in Grade and Service you go to Board Automatically? That explains a Lot! In my Day, No One went to a Board unless I said So, and my Commanders Backed me on This.
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SFC (Join to see)
1SG Billye Jackson yes three years ago the Army updated its promotion board process. Soldiers have to complete their SSD/DLC before they can attend the board. If they don't, HRC bars them. They have to attend the promotion board when they hit the primary zone, but they don't have to be recommended. They don't have to wait 90 days and can keep going as long as their CDR/1SG support it. As you know, a Soldier who walks into the board without the support of the 1SG is not usually walking out with a recommendation for promotion. They have a year in the primary zone to be recommended, after that the commander is required to bar them.
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I read that he is trying to motivate his Joes -- if it is an all the blocks must be checked policy - that's hard core and may comeback to affect everyone in the company, especially if Soldiers are not being recommended. If Soldiers are still being recommended, then it's a discriminator that makes decision making easier -- You know where you and your Soldiers stand -- Good Luck
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SGT (Join to see)
I understand the need to motivate Soldiers, I just believe correspondence hours are out dated and the Army should be promoting civilian education instead. Thanks for the info CSM!
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CPT (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) - Ironically, civilian education is promoted, and legit college courses and degrees earn you points on our promo packet. However, there is a cap of civilian education points one can get.
Sounds like your 1SG is trying to have a practice of bringing strong packets to the board so his secondary zone submissions don't get rejected.
There are going to be MOS's that require 600 points and others that only require 40 (as you point out). So between those two newly minted E5's is going to be a wide rift between the quality of soldiers that were promoted with 605 points and the one promoted with 45 points but they are both same DOR at E5.
Correspondent courses is about the only lever you 1SG can pull to influence 40 point soldiers to push themselves more.
Sounds like your 1SG is trying to have a practice of bringing strong packets to the board so his secondary zone submissions don't get rejected.
There are going to be MOS's that require 600 points and others that only require 40 (as you point out). So between those two newly minted E5's is going to be a wide rift between the quality of soldiers that were promoted with 605 points and the one promoted with 45 points but they are both same DOR at E5.
Correspondent courses is about the only lever you 1SG can pull to influence 40 point soldiers to push themselves more.
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SGT (Join to see)
CPT (Join to see) - thanks for the input, sir. it does bring a new light that I hadn't seen earlier. However, I am still against them as there definitely are better options than this.
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CPT (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) -
What I like about your 1SG policy is he is choosing aspects of the promotion process that are permanent. He could easily choose to only submit secondary zone packets with APFT/ACFT as the delineator.
Education and on-line courses will stick with you forever, and carry into the E6 promo packet. While APFT and Marksmanship are the biggest weight of points for promotion they are also variable based on how you did at the last record event.
It’s your 1SG’s policy, those are the hoops you have to jump through to move forward. No one here other than your company commander (that’s probably even limited if he knows what’s good for him) is going to change your situation.
You also should appreciate the 1SG is best served making a quantitative policy that is equally achievable by all soldiers.
Another policy could be no secondary zone submissions. Period.
What I like about your 1SG policy is he is choosing aspects of the promotion process that are permanent. He could easily choose to only submit secondary zone packets with APFT/ACFT as the delineator.
Education and on-line courses will stick with you forever, and carry into the E6 promo packet. While APFT and Marksmanship are the biggest weight of points for promotion they are also variable based on how you did at the last record event.
It’s your 1SG’s policy, those are the hoops you have to jump through to move forward. No one here other than your company commander (that’s probably even limited if he knows what’s good for him) is going to change your situation.
You also should appreciate the 1SG is best served making a quantitative policy that is equally achievable by all soldiers.
Another policy could be no secondary zone submissions. Period.
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From AR 600-8-19
Proponent and exception authority.
The proponent of this regulation is the Deputy Chief of Staff, G–1. The proponent has the authority to approve exceptions or waivers to this regulation that are consistent with controlling laws and regulations. The proponent may delegate this approval authority, in writing, to a division chief within the proponent agency or its direct reporting unit or field operating agency, in the grade of colonel or the civilian equivalent. Activities may request a waiver to this regulation by providing justification that includes a full analysis of the expected benefits and must include formal review by the activity’s senior legal officer. All waiver requests will be endorsed by the commander or senior leader of the requesting activity and forwarded through their higher headquarters to the policy proponent. Refer to AR 25–30 for specific guidance.
TL:DR - you can't add to OR take away without those peoples signatures^^^^^^
It is the job of the Commander to sign the AAA regarding who goes to the board....not the 1SG (who likely proofs it and hands it to the CDR for signature) The job of the CDR is to: Recommend for board appearance eligible Soldiers from the secondary zone based on their potential to assume responsibilities at the next higher grade.
All that forcing correspondence courses does is raise the minimum points across the Army and for a little while - create too many promotables in one unit. The system is in place to create competition and force constant development - not war game and speed up the system. Last time this much emphasis was placed on correspondence course...the Army reevaluated all of em and DQ'd a ton, thereby reducing the number of hours everyone had and number of courses available that counted.
Proponent and exception authority.
The proponent of this regulation is the Deputy Chief of Staff, G–1. The proponent has the authority to approve exceptions or waivers to this regulation that are consistent with controlling laws and regulations. The proponent may delegate this approval authority, in writing, to a division chief within the proponent agency or its direct reporting unit or field operating agency, in the grade of colonel or the civilian equivalent. Activities may request a waiver to this regulation by providing justification that includes a full analysis of the expected benefits and must include formal review by the activity’s senior legal officer. All waiver requests will be endorsed by the commander or senior leader of the requesting activity and forwarded through their higher headquarters to the policy proponent. Refer to AR 25–30 for specific guidance.
TL:DR - you can't add to OR take away without those peoples signatures^^^^^^
It is the job of the Commander to sign the AAA regarding who goes to the board....not the 1SG (who likely proofs it and hands it to the CDR for signature) The job of the CDR is to: Recommend for board appearance eligible Soldiers from the secondary zone based on their potential to assume responsibilities at the next higher grade.
All that forcing correspondence courses does is raise the minimum points across the Army and for a little while - create too many promotables in one unit. The system is in place to create competition and force constant development - not war game and speed up the system. Last time this much emphasis was placed on correspondence course...the Army reevaluated all of em and DQ'd a ton, thereby reducing the number of hours everyone had and number of courses available that counted.
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Why don’t rise to the challenge instead of being a baby and show your COC why you deserve to lead soldiers
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SFC Melvin Brandenburg
SPC Daniel Weinberger - I would say 400 hours is doable if worked at consistently. Had he started already, when he had the opportunity to begin, chances are he'd be well beyond half way. It shouldn't take the 1SG making this a requirement for the individual soldier to get this done.
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Your leadership can set whatever standards they want to for recommendation for favorable personnel actions. My question is, why aren't you working to have all of your correspondence done (or whomever)? As a leader, you are expected to be a subject matter expert, to develop yourself tactically and technically, and to aspire to be the best candidate for selection? I never understood the mentality of doing only enough to get what you want. As a leader I'd rather see my junior soldiers trying like hell to bring their A game each and every day. I brought mine.
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SGT (Join to see)
Guess this is just a generation thing that I cannot comprehend. Let me know how those c-hours helped you out, as I will never do them.
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CPT (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) - I came in as a SPC with a Masters degree. I was totally annoyed I maxed out civilian education at only 100 points. Not only that, already having my education the Tuition Assistance only applies to those advancing their education up to a Masters degree. So now there is a benefit I cannot cash in on all the while I'm doing a better quality job than any of my E4 peers. WTF!!!!!
Well, I get it, the Army doesn't want over educated lower enlisted. It wants over educated SGM's and COL's. The promotion process is designed to layer professional development as one advances in rank.
You might notice that education is weighted more in the E6 promotion process and APFT/ACFT and Marksmanship are worth less. The points max is still the same, but the weights slide in favor of education for SSG at the cost of fitness and weapons. So a SPC that promoted with SGT with a degree will have even more points in a SSG packet and they won't have had to do anything for them. The only place to make up education points is going to be military courses.
Your 1SG is not only helping you max your points for SGT, but it will carry to a greater degree for the promotion beyond that.
Well, I get it, the Army doesn't want over educated lower enlisted. It wants over educated SGM's and COL's. The promotion process is designed to layer professional development as one advances in rank.
You might notice that education is weighted more in the E6 promotion process and APFT/ACFT and Marksmanship are worth less. The points max is still the same, but the weights slide in favor of education for SSG at the cost of fitness and weapons. So a SPC that promoted with SGT with a degree will have even more points in a SSG packet and they won't have had to do anything for them. The only place to make up education points is going to be military courses.
Your 1SG is not only helping you max your points for SGT, but it will carry to a greater degree for the promotion beyond that.
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SFC Melvin Brandenburg
SGT (Join to see) it's not a generation thing. That's why I'm taking the time to explain this. Right now you and I have a disagreement and it is ok to disagree. What I want you to understand is that your contributions to the unit and your fellow soldiers matters a great deal. An NCO isn't merely a supervisor or manager. An NCO occupies a position of trust. Having been downrange twice I can assure you what is in those antiquated courses matters. Because I had that knowledge I was able to accomplish my part of the mission. Once you are in that situation and your Joe's and COC are looking at you with the expectation the mission be accomplished the time for study will have passed. How would you like to be the guy who didn't carry their water and as a result morale suffered or the mission failed? Or rather wouldn't you want to be the guy that is seen as a top leader and subject matter expert in your MOS because you could solve problems others couldn't? Either way it's your decision, but if the example you set is do only enough to get by, don't bitch and moan when your Joe's do that too.
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If it’s is for while in your secondary zone they don’t HAVE to send you so for them to ask you to meet a requirement to promote you ahead of peers there is no issue. Either you want to get the promotion early or not. Different story once you hit your primary zone. Then they will need to do a non promotable counseling stating why you should not be promoted every month.
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Get him to put that on paper and then take that counseling statement and file an IG complaint.
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Simply tell you soldiers to work on their correspondence hours. Promotion points change every month. It doesn’t matter if you think they don’t need the hours to get promoted to SGT, SSG might be different and it’s easier to take the time as a SPC or even a PVT and work on correspondence than it is as a SGT or SGT(P) trying to find points to make SSG. I require my soldiers to have max correspondence in my section. Pick your battles bud.
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