Posted on Oct 4, 2022
Can your command make you clean someone’s house?
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So a buddy of mine is watching another troops home & dog while he’s in the field and the troops wife is gone. The first day he goes over to let the dog out he find that the house is disgusting, dog feces everywhere, trash all over the place just generally nasty. So my buddy tells his NCO that he doesn’t know what to do because he doesn’t want to go back to that house. Well his platoon leadership for rear d says that everybody is going to go over to this guys house and clean it. There’s no way you can be forced to go clean someone else house right?
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Ethics
Leadership
Ethics Leadership
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 41
First and foremost, A superior’s order is presumed to be lawful and is disobeyed at the subordinate’s peril. Always keep that in mind.
Can your command "force" you to go clean someone's house? probably not. I seriously doubt someone is going to haul you physically over to the house and handcuff a mop to you.
Will you get into 'trouble' for not doing it - likely (probably every crap job coming to the Rear D's desk goes your way or other imaginative stuff...)
Are you disobeying a lawful order (i.e., UCMJ Article 92 stuff)? Yes, if it was put that way (instead of "Hey, who wants to go to Snuffy's house and help a buddy out?!").
Will you get into 'legal trouble' for not doing it - probably, but it's a gray area. Gray area because the order is not illegal, immoral or unethical (the usual trifecta for disobeying an order).
When they offer NJP to you and you go to a Court Martial because you refuse it, you can discuss strategy with your defense counsel while in pre-trial confinement. He'll likely try to argue that there isn't a valid military purpose.
However, the prosecutor will likely argue that it does have one because it is part and parcel of "promote the morale, discipline, and usefulness of unit members and directly with the maintenance of good order in the armed forces". You can roll your dice if you feel so strongly about it.
Does the order seem unfair? Absolutely. So does, "Snuffy, you take your mask off first to see if the nerve agent has dissipated..."
Can your command "force" you to go clean someone's house? probably not. I seriously doubt someone is going to haul you physically over to the house and handcuff a mop to you.
Will you get into 'trouble' for not doing it - likely (probably every crap job coming to the Rear D's desk goes your way or other imaginative stuff...)
Are you disobeying a lawful order (i.e., UCMJ Article 92 stuff)? Yes, if it was put that way (instead of "Hey, who wants to go to Snuffy's house and help a buddy out?!").
Will you get into 'legal trouble' for not doing it - probably, but it's a gray area. Gray area because the order is not illegal, immoral or unethical (the usual trifecta for disobeying an order).
When they offer NJP to you and you go to a Court Martial because you refuse it, you can discuss strategy with your defense counsel while in pre-trial confinement. He'll likely try to argue that there isn't a valid military purpose.
However, the prosecutor will likely argue that it does have one because it is part and parcel of "promote the morale, discipline, and usefulness of unit members and directly with the maintenance of good order in the armed forces". You can roll your dice if you feel so strongly about it.
Does the order seem unfair? Absolutely. So does, "Snuffy, you take your mask off first to see if the nerve agent has dissipated..."
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Respectfully, the COL is right on his practical take, but pretty entirely WRONG in his legal conclusions. Small example, no Soldier has to decline NJP before they get access to TDS advice. And the pretrial confinement remark is … ahem … off target.
All that said, help a fellow Soldier out and get over there and clean that $hit up.
All that said, help a fellow Soldier out and get over there and clean that $hit up.
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SSgt Michael Anderson
Can your command order you to jump off a cliff? No. It's all about it being a lawful order which must be mission-oriented.
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SGT Rob Coombs
Wow my unit helped move the division commanders house hood goods as he got promoted from 2 star to three star general. Sure you could say you can’t make me or it’s lot legal order but you don’t want to be that guy. We did what we were told to do and yes sometimes was it lawful ? All
I know is I never wanted to be that guy.
I know is I never wanted to be that guy.
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This serves a couple of purposes.
1) It helps a fellow member of the platoon. Whether this is on base or off base, forming ranks and cleaning the shit up will keep that SM from getting into deeper shit with whatever level of powers that be for housing.....Base Housing or Landlord. Either way, it'll help that SM in the long run.
2) It will get Leadership to have eyes on the direct problem at hand. This will not only help higher level of leadership have eyes on the situation to help provide assistance to the SM, but it will also show Leadership that the SMs FLL has failed in their duties. In fact, this will show the Leadership where all the failures have taken place.
1) It helps a fellow member of the platoon. Whether this is on base or off base, forming ranks and cleaning the shit up will keep that SM from getting into deeper shit with whatever level of powers that be for housing.....Base Housing or Landlord. Either way, it'll help that SM in the long run.
2) It will get Leadership to have eyes on the direct problem at hand. This will not only help higher level of leadership have eyes on the situation to help provide assistance to the SM, but it will also show Leadership that the SMs FLL has failed in their duties. In fact, this will show the Leadership where all the failures have taken place.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
MSG (Join to see) I may have been retired for a while but when I was still in, I was supposed to go to my troops quarters to visit and with the visit I was to make sure the family was not in need of basic necessities, was in a clean safe environment and that they were in decent living conditions. Did this change, or are these folks evidently not doing this? Dog-sitting was never a task of the Rear-D that I can remember.
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TSgt James Sutton
MSG (Join to see) - odd...you find it ethical that other members of the unit who take care of their own homes have to be punished cleaning the home of the member who isn't following the rules? How is that ethical?
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MSG (Join to see)
TSgt James Sutton how is it not ethical? Would it suck? Yea, not going to lie about that. One time, at Irwin years ago, we had a guy in the platoon that was living in base housing who needed to clear because of a PCS coming. Turns out he was a nasty ass in his house. It was trashed. But, it needed cleaning. Guess what the platoon did?
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He's going to be gone in the field for what 2 weeks, maybe 3? From the sounds of it, this house has been in disarray for months.
It is not ethical or moral to volun-tell people to go clean a grown man and woman's house. And since even base housing is privatized, I'd say that at best it's getting chalk on their feet of the legal line. Essentially what they're doing is forcing soldiers to provide a free house cleaning service to this member who chose to live like a slob. Or if you want to view it another way, they're forcing the government to pay for a house cleaning service of a lazy SM.
The guy is only in the field, he's not deployed. The house can stay nasty, and his leadership with their new found knowledge of his living habits can take the appropriate action to fix this soldier upon return to garrison.
It would be a completely different story if the leadership had said: 'hey, this soldier's house is a shit-show, who wants to go help him out while he's gone?' That's an opportunity for people to "take care of their buddy" as others have suggested.
It is not ethical or moral to volun-tell people to go clean a grown man and woman's house. And since even base housing is privatized, I'd say that at best it's getting chalk on their feet of the legal line. Essentially what they're doing is forcing soldiers to provide a free house cleaning service to this member who chose to live like a slob. Or if you want to view it another way, they're forcing the government to pay for a house cleaning service of a lazy SM.
The guy is only in the field, he's not deployed. The house can stay nasty, and his leadership with their new found knowledge of his living habits can take the appropriate action to fix this soldier upon return to garrison.
It would be a completely different story if the leadership had said: 'hey, this soldier's house is a shit-show, who wants to go help him out while he's gone?' That's an opportunity for people to "take care of their buddy" as others have suggested.
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CPT (Join to see)
SFC Marc W. - I see (possibly it's going to happen in this situation) problems with individually cleaning this specific soldier's housing as already mentioned above.
I do see a stronger case for protecting the chain of command of illegal orders if the Commander says cart blanche............OK, every platoon, every squad will clean their battle's quarters in a health and wellness mission Company wide.
Shit shows will get exposed cleaned up and perfect clean soldiers will merely be a look around and validated.
PL's will validate the inspections, PSG's will delegate the cleaning parties at the squad level. Then that all rolls up to the Company Commander sitting behind a desk. Or maybe not, maybe it stops at the 1SG's office.
Everyone learns..................
I do see a stronger case for protecting the chain of command of illegal orders if the Commander says cart blanche............OK, every platoon, every squad will clean their battle's quarters in a health and wellness mission Company wide.
Shit shows will get exposed cleaned up and perfect clean soldiers will merely be a look around and validated.
PL's will validate the inspections, PSG's will delegate the cleaning parties at the squad level. Then that all rolls up to the Company Commander sitting behind a desk. Or maybe not, maybe it stops at the 1SG's office.
Everyone learns..................
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SFC Marc W.
CPT (Join to see) There is 0 reason to carpet bomb the entire unit with cleaning everyone else's crap.
This is likely an overzealous SSG or LT on rear D who just wants this issue to go away. A little patience would go a long way here. Just wait until the unit is back and have a one-on-one with the soldier's leadership up to PSG.
The use of health and wellness in this case would be better for inspecting private residence.
I may have misread (if so correct me), but what you're suggesting is to mass punish the whole unit to protect a bad call by a rear D NCO or officer.
This is likely an overzealous SSG or LT on rear D who just wants this issue to go away. A little patience would go a long way here. Just wait until the unit is back and have a one-on-one with the soldier's leadership up to PSG.
The use of health and wellness in this case would be better for inspecting private residence.
I may have misread (if so correct me), but what you're suggesting is to mass punish the whole unit to protect a bad call by a rear D NCO or officer.
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CPT (Join to see)
SFC Marc W. - Yes, if something bad gets communicated high enough then that command level needs to uniformly cover their collective asses to assure the scenario is not occurring elsewhere under their responsibility.
I got out of my command time with my ass in my hands so that's how I will react going forward (which I probably wont because I just wont voluntarily put myself in that role again).
I got out of my command time with my ass in my hands so that's how I will react going forward (which I probably wont because I just wont voluntarily put myself in that role again).
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TSgt James Sutton
also wonder what happens if the guy who was asked to watch the house gets blamed if anything goes missing when the entire command shows up to help clean and maybe something the owner didn't want thrown away? Lot of legal issues here, definitely not ethical if only looking at the punishment the other members are suffering after not having done anything wrong....would be different if there was a compelling issue such as the guy or his wife was sick and they couldn't clean it themselves....this is just a lack of discipline issue where the only people being punished are the other members and the guy with the issues is getting off free.
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Being asked to clean up someone else's messy house isn't fair. I've been in a spot where I had to clean a big mess and decided to call a cleaning company. They knew exactly what to do and had special tools to clean it safely.
I did this because they're experts at cleaning filthy places, and it was too much for me to handle alone. Suppose you want to know more about how these cleaning services work and why they can be a good choice, Schau hier - https://cleanify.at/. They explain things clearly and can give you some good advice for situations like this.
I did this because they're experts at cleaning filthy places, and it was too much for me to handle alone. Suppose you want to know more about how these cleaning services work and why they can be a good choice, Schau hier - https://cleanify.at/. They explain things clearly and can give you some good advice for situations like this.
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Cleanify - Die Reinigungsfirma Wien. Professionelle Hausbetreuung, Gebäude- und Büroreinigung sowie zuverlässige Sonderreinigung.
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Something smells! Unless there is a “teaching moment and a learning component”, I would sure drag my heels.
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Is it a lawful order punishable under the UCMJ? No.
Is it the right thing to do to help a fellow member of the unit? Absolutely.
The guy in need will be in debt to you all but it’s the right thing to do. Plus if the Command gets flagged because this guys situation becomes common knowledge and it’s learned that you all did nothing to assist or intervene it will cause a lot of static for you. Feel free to push back but it’s not worth all the trouble and it seems like a lot of effort to avoid helping a Unit member
Is it the right thing to do to help a fellow member of the unit? Absolutely.
The guy in need will be in debt to you all but it’s the right thing to do. Plus if the Command gets flagged because this guys situation becomes common knowledge and it’s learned that you all did nothing to assist or intervene it will cause a lot of static for you. Feel free to push back but it’s not worth all the trouble and it seems like a lot of effort to avoid helping a Unit member
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My very first work detail in the Navy was the cleaning of a senior officer's horse stable and barn. I was awaiting orders prior to attending Hospital Corps School. I've always believed shoveling that horse excrement prepared me well for some of folks I later took orders from.
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As a SrNCO, I would not order anyone to clean this man's private residence. For everyone saying this beneficial to morale and well functioning, you're going to risk morale going to shit to benefit one person?
If this slob lived in the barracks, 1st Sgt would be there to enforce the cleanliness of quarters. This is a family's private home, you can't just send a gaggle of soldiers/Airmen there against his knowledge. He gave consent for 1 person to enter his home, not the unit.
If this slob lived in the barracks, 1st Sgt would be there to enforce the cleanliness of quarters. This is a family's private home, you can't just send a gaggle of soldiers/Airmen there against his knowledge. He gave consent for 1 person to enter his home, not the unit.
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The bigger problem to look out for is the nature of the mess, and how high the mess gets exposed to.
Right now it's a platoon level problem executing a platoon level reaction.
The higher the problem is observed at the various levels of the chain of command the higher and broader the response is going to have to be uniformly applied.
If the commanding COL or CSM got wind of this they have to cover their tracks across their entire subordinate units and soldiers. Health and Wellness Brigade wide by end of week. Have Fun.
Right now it's a platoon level problem executing a platoon level reaction.
The higher the problem is observed at the various levels of the chain of command the higher and broader the response is going to have to be uniformly applied.
If the commanding COL or CSM got wind of this they have to cover their tracks across their entire subordinate units and soldiers. Health and Wellness Brigade wide by end of week. Have Fun.
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No - they cannot order you to clean someone's private residence. In fact, no one else can legally go in that house unless the homeowner gives them permission to do so whether it's off post or on base housing as that's privatized housing.
However - if the home is in a state that is dangerous for people to live in, that needs to get reported up. I know one time the BN CSM talked to all the NCOs about checking on people and when you have a bad feeling about a soldier, tell someone. I guess someone's NCO went to their on base home to check on them and the soldier wouldn't let them in (another NCO) which they didn't have to but through the door, his supervisor could see what looked like poop on the walls. So he reported it and they went through all the legal channels to be able to go in and inspect - and apparently the house was a disgusting mess. Shit on the walls, dirty diapers, trash, etc. So obviously a kid lived there too. It was apparently one of the worst things CSM had seen.
So there are ways for leadership to legally go into someone's private home when it's a safety and welfare issue but it takes going through legal to start with.
I absolutely would not go clean someone's house if it was in the state you say it's in. I'm not risking my health over someone who can't take care of their own home. If it's in that state and he's married...then both of them need to also probably go to BH because there are some issues going on.
Your leadership needs to look into it more but no, it's not a lawful order to illegally enter someone's home. I'd tell them I'm not doing it and then go talk to legal if they push it.
For all those "you wouldn't help a buddy out" who said they are friends? Not everyone in a section, platoon, unit are friends with each other. My house isn't immaculate but I sure as hell don't live in filth and never would.
However - if the home is in a state that is dangerous for people to live in, that needs to get reported up. I know one time the BN CSM talked to all the NCOs about checking on people and when you have a bad feeling about a soldier, tell someone. I guess someone's NCO went to their on base home to check on them and the soldier wouldn't let them in (another NCO) which they didn't have to but through the door, his supervisor could see what looked like poop on the walls. So he reported it and they went through all the legal channels to be able to go in and inspect - and apparently the house was a disgusting mess. Shit on the walls, dirty diapers, trash, etc. So obviously a kid lived there too. It was apparently one of the worst things CSM had seen.
So there are ways for leadership to legally go into someone's private home when it's a safety and welfare issue but it takes going through legal to start with.
I absolutely would not go clean someone's house if it was in the state you say it's in. I'm not risking my health over someone who can't take care of their own home. If it's in that state and he's married...then both of them need to also probably go to BH because there are some issues going on.
Your leadership needs to look into it more but no, it's not a lawful order to illegally enter someone's home. I'd tell them I'm not doing it and then go talk to legal if they push it.
For all those "you wouldn't help a buddy out" who said they are friends? Not everyone in a section, platoon, unit are friends with each other. My house isn't immaculate but I sure as hell don't live in filth and never would.
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SSG (Join to see)
Finally someone who sees it the way I do. I don’t clean up after my wife or son and they don’t clean up after me & I certainly don’t want to clean a grown adults home.
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