Posted on Feb 25, 2015
Civil Air Patrol, State Guards, and Professional Courtesy
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I was looking through some photos recently and found a photo that reminded me of an interaction I had while at an Air Show in the deep south. At the time, I was at an air show (civilian attire, but on orders), and as I watched I saw the CAP cadets walking around in fatigues, jackets unbuttoned, sunglasses on their heads, a few even had the "saggy britches" problem. When an officer came by, I was even more shocked. Her uniform was TIGHT....I mean "see the bellybutton hole" tight.
As such, I had addressed her and suggested that she may want to find a more "fitting" uniform, even pointing out that according to the Civil Air Patrol regs you weren't authorized "military-style" uniforms unless you were within 10% of the AF ht/wt (no tape option). When she asked "who the f___ are you?" I informed her that I was a 1LT with the US Army Reserves mobilized in the area. She responded by basically stating that if I were truly in the Reserves, I should have had a greater respect for her rank, as she was a MAJ, and I was only a 1LT.
Additionally, I had a gentleman in the Mississippi State Guard that was wearing his uniform on post to the PX. The guy was certainly above 350lbs, probably pushing 400lbs (not exaggerating)....height was not much taller than me, so maybe 6 foot. I didn't get close enough to catch his rank, but I was floored that he would wear the uniform to a base PX.
In both cases, I found myself wondering how I would have handled the situation in uniform and "up close and personal". I would like to think that the MAJ would have the professional courtesy to realize the sacrifices that myself and my Soldiers would go through in order to obtain their rank, but I wondered whether the standards of professional courtesies apply to these "ranks" seeing as they are not classified as active military personnel, nor are they equivalent ranks from foreign military services.
Obviously, within each realm, they are entitled to the same level of respect as established by policies/by-laws, but my question pertains to whether they are able to expect a uniformed servicemember: Active, Guard, or Reserve of ANY branch to command the same courtesies afforded our own. I don't mind providing them, but at the same time, I kept envisioning myself being "ordered" to stand at attention while being dressed down by MAJ Flab.
Have others had the same interaction? How have you handled these situations?
Disclaimer: This isn't intended to discount any in the state guard or Civil Air Patrol. My interactions with the local CAP unit here have been good, and I know that there are State Guardsmen that are very well qualified as well. This is not meant to be a generalization.
v/r,
CPT Butler
As such, I had addressed her and suggested that she may want to find a more "fitting" uniform, even pointing out that according to the Civil Air Patrol regs you weren't authorized "military-style" uniforms unless you were within 10% of the AF ht/wt (no tape option). When she asked "who the f___ are you?" I informed her that I was a 1LT with the US Army Reserves mobilized in the area. She responded by basically stating that if I were truly in the Reserves, I should have had a greater respect for her rank, as she was a MAJ, and I was only a 1LT.
Additionally, I had a gentleman in the Mississippi State Guard that was wearing his uniform on post to the PX. The guy was certainly above 350lbs, probably pushing 400lbs (not exaggerating)....height was not much taller than me, so maybe 6 foot. I didn't get close enough to catch his rank, but I was floored that he would wear the uniform to a base PX.
In both cases, I found myself wondering how I would have handled the situation in uniform and "up close and personal". I would like to think that the MAJ would have the professional courtesy to realize the sacrifices that myself and my Soldiers would go through in order to obtain their rank, but I wondered whether the standards of professional courtesies apply to these "ranks" seeing as they are not classified as active military personnel, nor are they equivalent ranks from foreign military services.
Obviously, within each realm, they are entitled to the same level of respect as established by policies/by-laws, but my question pertains to whether they are able to expect a uniformed servicemember: Active, Guard, or Reserve of ANY branch to command the same courtesies afforded our own. I don't mind providing them, but at the same time, I kept envisioning myself being "ordered" to stand at attention while being dressed down by MAJ Flab.
Have others had the same interaction? How have you handled these situations?
Disclaimer: This isn't intended to discount any in the state guard or Civil Air Patrol. My interactions with the local CAP unit here have been good, and I know that there are State Guardsmen that are very well qualified as well. This is not meant to be a generalization.
v/r,
CPT Butler
Militia
Customs and Courtesies
Respect
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 27
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The Civil Air Patrol is a Civilian Humanitarian Organization. Its members are civilian, prior-service, or retired military. They have to salute each other and higher ranking military Officers but they hold no position of authority over military personal and cannot demand anything of them to include salutes. If they wear the Air Force uniform they must wear them correctly, be within 10% of the Air Force Standards and be courteous. Sounds like the cadets lacked proper supervision and the CAP Major sounds unprofessional. Perhaps she was a retired military Major and felt entitled. I've had some issues with military retires before. As they feel they have "earned" the right to wear the uniform no matter how poorly and will be rude about it.
As for the State Guards/State Defense Force they have no weight requirements. Often the State Defense Forces/State Guards are undermanned and are not about to chase unpaid volunteers off just because they do not meet military weight standards, so long as they are trying and are willing to work. Volunteers are hard to find and most Commanders are not going to risk running them off over uniform or weight standards so long as they are willing to work.
I am a CAP Master Sergeant, with piorservice experience, as well as a formor member of the Mississippi State Guard and a retired SSG with the Alabama State Defense Force. As an NCO try to insure I correct or report such individuals as you encountered. I am sorry that they are your lasting experience with these organizations as they do have many dedicated, hard working people in their ranks.
As for the State Guards/State Defense Force they have no weight requirements. Often the State Defense Forces/State Guards are undermanned and are not about to chase unpaid volunteers off just because they do not meet military weight standards, so long as they are trying and are willing to work. Volunteers are hard to find and most Commanders are not going to risk running them off over uniform or weight standards so long as they are willing to work.
I am a CAP Master Sergeant, with piorservice experience, as well as a formor member of the Mississippi State Guard and a retired SSG with the Alabama State Defense Force. As an NCO try to insure I correct or report such individuals as you encountered. I am sorry that they are your lasting experience with these organizations as they do have many dedicated, hard working people in their ranks.
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Well I served with the Civil Air Patrol Air Force Auxiliary from 16 October 2010 - 30 November 2015 as a Senior Member i left as a 1st Lieutenant. The Civil Air Patrol didn't really do anything in the Wing that i was in its more less a social club to pay $120 year for membership. Most of the people there were Dishonorable Discharge from the military our they were Stolen Valor a bunch of people who did nothing but lie and make up stories about there service. Walking around looking like a Soupsandwich with hair hanging out of there nose and ears. The groming standards and physical fitness was a joke . You want to talk about Chair Force you sat in a chair for 6 hours to watch a stupid saftey briefing that didn't even really protain to anything of importance. The Civil Air Patrol is a joke it's way for someone to lie and throw on a uniform to pretend to be something there not . Not everyone who serves in the Civil Air Patrol is like that though but for the most part that's what you have to deal with. As for the State Guard it depends on the unit. My unit dosent tolerate any kind of bullshit. The unit i was with before the Martime Regiment is ate the hell up. So i transfered over to the ARMY Component.
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Former Civil Air Patrol Air Force Auxiliary Senior Member 1st Lieutenant. Now serveing in the ARMY STATE GUARD. The State Guard is part of the State Military Department along with the ARMY National Guard & Air Force Air National Guard. In order to be a Commissioned Officer in the State Guard you have to go through the same OCS - Officer Canidate School. The Civil Air Patrol Air Force Auxiliary basically makes all of it's Adult Members anyone over the age of 18 a 2nd Lieutenant within 6 month's of service by completing a Online Crouse in Emergency Services and earning a Technicians Rating. So no a Civil Air Patrol Officer dose not require a Salute there a Civillan there not considered a part of the Military. The State Guard is considered a part of the States Military Department so the same Customs & Courtesies would apply were treated like members of the National Guard our Officer's had to complete a 18 month's Officer's Canidate Course to earn there Commission.
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I'm a former member of the Civil Air Patrol Senior Member 1st Lieutenant. The Armed Force's are not required to salute us. The only people who are required to salute us is Civil Air Patrol Cadets , anyone in the Civil Air Patrol below our rank, Young Marines , Naval Sea Cadet Corps, Coast Guard Auxiliary & High School JROTC. The Civil Air Patrol is not a part of the Military it's a Volunteer Civillan Auxiliary Component of the Air Force. The Armed Force's may salute us if they wish but is not required. Unlike the State Guard you have to have been a Officer in the Armed Force's our completed Officer's Canidate School through the Texas State Guard. The Texas State Guard is considered a part of the Texas State Military Department and all personnel are required to be treated as members of the National Guard there for a salute is to be rendered.
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The State Guard is allowed to shop at the BX , ShopPet & Commissary there part of the State Military Department it's part of there benifits. The Civil Air Patrol is not allowed to be in there unless it's during drill are there buying uniform supplies.
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I was in the Civil Air Patrol' as a 1st Lt. Senior Member, we are not entitled to a Salute from the Armed Force's' as the ranks are pretty much given to you provided you pass a online test on Emergency Services. I serve with the Texas State Guard Maritime Regiment. The State Guard' is considered a part of the Texas State Military Forces' it is a all volunteer force. Officer's must graduate from OCS - Officer Canidate School wich is held at Camp Mayberry in Austin Texas and the 6th month training course is conducted by the Army National Guard. Texas State Guard members with Officer rank are to be treated as if they were National Guard members, out of courtesy and respect only if the Armed Service member renders a salute all salutes are to be rendered back . The Federal Military's Armed Forces out rank the Department Of Home Land Security Military Forces' with the exception of the Coast Guard. However the Texas State Guard is not a part of the Federal Armed Force's wich out ranks the Texas State Guard . The Federal Military is not required to Salute State Guard Members. The Coast Guard Auxiliary & Civil Air Patrol are required to salute the State Guard as they completed OCS . The same concept applies because all 3 are Volunteer Orginzations with the State Guard being the highest . Wich serve under the Department of Homeland Security' and each of them conduct Search & Rescue for the State . The Federal Military also out ranks GS - Government Specialty' who outrank are Volunteer Auxiliary Component's State Guard, Civil Air Patrol, Coast Guard Auxiliary . Unless the person with a Government Specialty is serveing in Law Enforcement .
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