Posted on Feb 25, 2015
Civil Air Patrol, State Guards, and Professional Courtesy
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I was looking through some photos recently and found a photo that reminded me of an interaction I had while at an Air Show in the deep south. At the time, I was at an air show (civilian attire, but on orders), and as I watched I saw the CAP cadets walking around in fatigues, jackets unbuttoned, sunglasses on their heads, a few even had the "saggy britches" problem. When an officer came by, I was even more shocked. Her uniform was TIGHT....I mean "see the bellybutton hole" tight.
As such, I had addressed her and suggested that she may want to find a more "fitting" uniform, even pointing out that according to the Civil Air Patrol regs you weren't authorized "military-style" uniforms unless you were within 10% of the AF ht/wt (no tape option). When she asked "who the f___ are you?" I informed her that I was a 1LT with the US Army Reserves mobilized in the area. She responded by basically stating that if I were truly in the Reserves, I should have had a greater respect for her rank, as she was a MAJ, and I was only a 1LT.
Additionally, I had a gentleman in the Mississippi State Guard that was wearing his uniform on post to the PX. The guy was certainly above 350lbs, probably pushing 400lbs (not exaggerating)....height was not much taller than me, so maybe 6 foot. I didn't get close enough to catch his rank, but I was floored that he would wear the uniform to a base PX.
In both cases, I found myself wondering how I would have handled the situation in uniform and "up close and personal". I would like to think that the MAJ would have the professional courtesy to realize the sacrifices that myself and my Soldiers would go through in order to obtain their rank, but I wondered whether the standards of professional courtesies apply to these "ranks" seeing as they are not classified as active military personnel, nor are they equivalent ranks from foreign military services.
Obviously, within each realm, they are entitled to the same level of respect as established by policies/by-laws, but my question pertains to whether they are able to expect a uniformed servicemember: Active, Guard, or Reserve of ANY branch to command the same courtesies afforded our own. I don't mind providing them, but at the same time, I kept envisioning myself being "ordered" to stand at attention while being dressed down by MAJ Flab.
Have others had the same interaction? How have you handled these situations?
Disclaimer: This isn't intended to discount any in the state guard or Civil Air Patrol. My interactions with the local CAP unit here have been good, and I know that there are State Guardsmen that are very well qualified as well. This is not meant to be a generalization.
v/r,
CPT Butler
As such, I had addressed her and suggested that she may want to find a more "fitting" uniform, even pointing out that according to the Civil Air Patrol regs you weren't authorized "military-style" uniforms unless you were within 10% of the AF ht/wt (no tape option). When she asked "who the f___ are you?" I informed her that I was a 1LT with the US Army Reserves mobilized in the area. She responded by basically stating that if I were truly in the Reserves, I should have had a greater respect for her rank, as she was a MAJ, and I was only a 1LT.
Additionally, I had a gentleman in the Mississippi State Guard that was wearing his uniform on post to the PX. The guy was certainly above 350lbs, probably pushing 400lbs (not exaggerating)....height was not much taller than me, so maybe 6 foot. I didn't get close enough to catch his rank, but I was floored that he would wear the uniform to a base PX.
In both cases, I found myself wondering how I would have handled the situation in uniform and "up close and personal". I would like to think that the MAJ would have the professional courtesy to realize the sacrifices that myself and my Soldiers would go through in order to obtain their rank, but I wondered whether the standards of professional courtesies apply to these "ranks" seeing as they are not classified as active military personnel, nor are they equivalent ranks from foreign military services.
Obviously, within each realm, they are entitled to the same level of respect as established by policies/by-laws, but my question pertains to whether they are able to expect a uniformed servicemember: Active, Guard, or Reserve of ANY branch to command the same courtesies afforded our own. I don't mind providing them, but at the same time, I kept envisioning myself being "ordered" to stand at attention while being dressed down by MAJ Flab.
Have others had the same interaction? How have you handled these situations?
Disclaimer: This isn't intended to discount any in the state guard or Civil Air Patrol. My interactions with the local CAP unit here have been good, and I know that there are State Guardsmen that are very well qualified as well. This is not meant to be a generalization.
v/r,
CPT Butler
Militia
Customs and Courtesies
Respect
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 27
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You do not warrant a salute or or respect as they are an embarrassment to there services. This is the first thing I think of, however, do I know them and know what they have done in their life, No. As far as requiring a salute, No they do not as they are not part of the seven recognized services. Here is my concern, there are both good and bad soldier, airman, marines, sailors, guard members and even CAP/CGA. Some of the most over weight I have seen were active duty navy and some of the worst dressed were the active duty air force. I can not speak for the CAP/CGA , but I can for the Army and now the State Guard. I served 30 years on active and reserve status in the army and I just joined the State Guard (SG). SG has had a bad reputation as being the Coronals Club, but there has been a huge effort to change this and become more professional. They are title 32 the same as the NG, but can not be federalized and are activated during state emergency's. Most members are prior military and have lots of civilian experience as well. There are requirements, that if they SG does not look good in there uniform or they do not know how to wear it, then they are not authorized to wear it. There is a difference between SG and State Militia, which is not state backed by the governor. All officers of the SG must be approved by the state elected and are commissioned by an act of the governor. The SG is small and is actually harder to get into than the reserves or NG in Washington State, at least as an officer. Bottom line, those who you think you don't need to salute my be more deserving of it than some active duty personnel. You don't have to salute, but nothing says you cant if you think they deserve it. Look at the ribbons or their combat patch. Most but not all, have far more time and experience then 80 of the federal services. Just my thoughts from years as a NCO.
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1SG Vance Whippo
First sentence correction: They do not warrant a salute or respect as they are an embarrassment to their services.
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CPT Jonathan Butler, no sir, there are five branches; Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard all requiring our respect and customs and courtesies due their rank. However, the Civil Air Patrol is not a Branch of the US Military and therefore does not warrant the same customs and courtesies. When I first read this I was reminded of High School JROTC, would you salute their Major, no, and you would not salute a CAP MAJ either, sir, I would suggest if this happens again that you ask to see her FLL.
As for NG Soldiers and I don't intend this to be a generalization, but we must remember that the majority of their funding (Budget), leadership (Commanding General is an appointment by the Governor), and responsibility (Civil unrest, Floods and Wild Fires) is handled at the state level and thus some states/units, but not all, remember I said not all for those that may take offense to my post.
Some States do not hold their Soldiers to military standards. I truly believe after the past 14 years of war they are thankfully harder to find, but they are still out there. However, all of this would not stop me from addressing it if I saw the Soldier at the PX, sir. Because, the Soldier is still wearing the uniform of the US Military and is disrespecting you and I to wear it in public looking as you described. I am surprised, though, that their leadership had allowed the Soldier to make it to that size without putting them out of the military.
As for NG Soldiers and I don't intend this to be a generalization, but we must remember that the majority of their funding (Budget), leadership (Commanding General is an appointment by the Governor), and responsibility (Civil unrest, Floods and Wild Fires) is handled at the state level and thus some states/units, but not all, remember I said not all for those that may take offense to my post.
Some States do not hold their Soldiers to military standards. I truly believe after the past 14 years of war they are thankfully harder to find, but they are still out there. However, all of this would not stop me from addressing it if I saw the Soldier at the PX, sir. Because, the Soldier is still wearing the uniform of the US Military and is disrespecting you and I to wear it in public looking as you described. I am surprised, though, that their leadership had allowed the Soldier to make it to that size without putting them out of the military.
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SGM (Join to see)
1SG John Millan - Thank you for your service, Top, in reading your response I realized that I left armed off. The DOD uses Branch of Service in official correspondence and DD Forms (DD FORM 149 Block 1 a. BRANCH OF SERVICE, i.e. Army, Navy, Air force, Marines, Coast Guard) to refer to the Five Armed Service Branches for example: Master Your Military Mascots > U.S. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE > Quiz; https://www.defense.gov/Engage/Quiz/Article/1649918/quiz-master-your-military-mascots/ ...other animal each military service branch or academy has adopted as its official...other animal each military service branch or academy has adopted as ...
Pence Announces Space Force as Sixth Armed Forces Branch
https://www.defense.gov/Watch/Video/videoid/618258/
Department will establish a sixth branch of the armed forces, the U.S. Department...Space Force as Sixth Armed Forces Branch Defense.gov Aug. 9, 2018 ...
However, they also use Agency as well. For example, the DD Form 1299 that I recently filled out for my PCS in block 6 d. requires you to state your Agency, for which "United States Army" was typed in that box. I write all this to state that while you are correct that there are five services, so am I, but truly we should probably both use "Five Branches of Armed Services" Per the DoD. Finally, 1SG, I could find no mention on the DoD website, Dod Reg.s, nor the APD referring to the two additional armed(though you left that off as well, top) uniformed services you mentioned. Are they armed, 1SG? If not, are they included in the 5 Branches of Armed Services?
Respectfully,
MSG Robinson
Pence Announces Space Force as Sixth Armed Forces Branch
https://www.defense.gov/Watch/Video/videoid/618258/
Department will establish a sixth branch of the armed forces, the U.S. Department...Space Force as Sixth Armed Forces Branch Defense.gov Aug. 9, 2018 ...
However, they also use Agency as well. For example, the DD Form 1299 that I recently filled out for my PCS in block 6 d. requires you to state your Agency, for which "United States Army" was typed in that box. I write all this to state that while you are correct that there are five services, so am I, but truly we should probably both use "Five Branches of Armed Services" Per the DoD. Finally, 1SG, I could find no mention on the DoD website, Dod Reg.s, nor the APD referring to the two additional armed(though you left that off as well, top) uniformed services you mentioned. Are they armed, 1SG? If not, are they included in the 5 Branches of Armed Services?
Respectfully,
MSG Robinson
Do you know which fido, horse, cat or other animal each military service branch or academy has adopted as its official mascot? “Paws” for a moment, and test yourself.
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Sir,
I would have a hard time with a CAP Officer dressing me down. State and Local law enforcement, corrections officers, and even private security companies use the same rank structure we do. That doesn't mean I'm going to salute the CPT from a prison. I'm not diminishing the CAP, but they do not merit the same level of respect that a service-member does.
I would have a hard time with a CAP Officer dressing me down. State and Local law enforcement, corrections officers, and even private security companies use the same rank structure we do. That doesn't mean I'm going to salute the CPT from a prison. I'm not diminishing the CAP, but they do not merit the same level of respect that a service-member does.
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MAJ Alvin B.
Full disclosure up front: I am and have been a CAP Officer for 30 years.
[I will focus on CAP, not the State Guards as there are at least 23 variations on State Guard rules, regulations and requirements.]
Up front, if the CAP Officer responded that way, or was wearing the uniform incorrectly, the officer was wrong. If the cadets were out of uniform or wearing the uniform incorrectly, they were wrong. No CAP member, including yours truly, is exempt form inquiry and if appropriate tactful advise regarding errors.
I find that in similar situations (and they have happened on active duty and with CAP) it is best to identify myself first (especially if not in uniform), and then express my concerns. All CAP members are expected to conduct themselves properly and to wear the uniform correctly at all times. There is an AFI which covers the USAF oversight of CAP. there are CAP Regulations and training that cover the topic as well.
No military member is ever required to salute a member of the Civil Air Patrol. All CAP members are required to comply with CAP regulations, to Include military customs and courtesies and CAP grooming standards. CAP does expect its Officers, members and cadets to render appropriate military customs and courtesies to members of the uniformed services, especially when wearing the USAF style uniforms.
CAP has USAF style uniforms and Corporate uniforms to accommodate all body types and grooming standards. However, there are some slight variations between the USAF and CAP versions of what is authorized and correct (clearly your description goes beyond that).
Something I have encountered more than once is a military bias (remember I was in the service for over 20 years) against those who do not fit our visual image of a squared away soldier, sailor, airmen or marine. If someone does not seem fit, trim and clean shaven, there is an initial internal desire to react. In my experience we all have a visual image of a proper military member, and often auxiliary airmen, and others do not fit that mold.
CAP is chartered by Congress as a non profit benevolent non-combatant organization, with three federally mandated national missions. CAP is also the official civilian auxiliary of the USAF (and now the fourth component [In Aug 2015 CAP was added to USAF doctrine a component of the USAF and CAP members are now referred to as Airmen]).
CAP provides direct support and execution of USAF non-combat missions as directed. In fact 80-95% of the 1st AF/NORTHAF Daily ATO is executed by CAP, and over 80% of the AFRCC inland search and rescue tastings also go to CAP.
The organization is not perfect, nor are its members, yet I for one have found it a very rewarding and challenging way to continue to serve my country.
Thank you for raising the discussion item.
[I will focus on CAP, not the State Guards as there are at least 23 variations on State Guard rules, regulations and requirements.]
Up front, if the CAP Officer responded that way, or was wearing the uniform incorrectly, the officer was wrong. If the cadets were out of uniform or wearing the uniform incorrectly, they were wrong. No CAP member, including yours truly, is exempt form inquiry and if appropriate tactful advise regarding errors.
I find that in similar situations (and they have happened on active duty and with CAP) it is best to identify myself first (especially if not in uniform), and then express my concerns. All CAP members are expected to conduct themselves properly and to wear the uniform correctly at all times. There is an AFI which covers the USAF oversight of CAP. there are CAP Regulations and training that cover the topic as well.
No military member is ever required to salute a member of the Civil Air Patrol. All CAP members are required to comply with CAP regulations, to Include military customs and courtesies and CAP grooming standards. CAP does expect its Officers, members and cadets to render appropriate military customs and courtesies to members of the uniformed services, especially when wearing the USAF style uniforms.
CAP has USAF style uniforms and Corporate uniforms to accommodate all body types and grooming standards. However, there are some slight variations between the USAF and CAP versions of what is authorized and correct (clearly your description goes beyond that).
Something I have encountered more than once is a military bias (remember I was in the service for over 20 years) against those who do not fit our visual image of a squared away soldier, sailor, airmen or marine. If someone does not seem fit, trim and clean shaven, there is an initial internal desire to react. In my experience we all have a visual image of a proper military member, and often auxiliary airmen, and others do not fit that mold.
CAP is chartered by Congress as a non profit benevolent non-combatant organization, with three federally mandated national missions. CAP is also the official civilian auxiliary of the USAF (and now the fourth component [In Aug 2015 CAP was added to USAF doctrine a component of the USAF and CAP members are now referred to as Airmen]).
CAP provides direct support and execution of USAF non-combat missions as directed. In fact 80-95% of the 1st AF/NORTHAF Daily ATO is executed by CAP, and over 80% of the AFRCC inland search and rescue tastings also go to CAP.
The organization is not perfect, nor are its members, yet I for one have found it a very rewarding and challenging way to continue to serve my country.
Thank you for raising the discussion item.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
MAJ Alvin B. - I have now been in CAP for going on 5 years. I joined because I missed being a mentor to young troopers, having been an Army NCO for most of my life. Civil Air Patrol produces the best young people you will find anywhere, and the adults that volunteer decades of their time and large chunks of their resources (as CAP is sometimes referred to as Come And Pay), all to give something back, to pay it forward if you will.
All the Retirees and Vets that are on here and want to slam the organization, I would challenge to join a local unit and try to make it better.
The officer that recruited me is a USAFA Graduate with 165 missions in an RF-4 over Vietnam, and over 20 years in the Air Force. His simple question to me was this... "If you look at the youth of today and you shake your head about the state of the country, what YOU doing to make it better?" and "Do you still feel like you have something to contribute?" I was hooked and will be till this old Soldier fades away.
"We make a difference in the lives of every person we meet, EVERY DAY...Make it a positive one!"
All the Retirees and Vets that are on here and want to slam the organization, I would challenge to join a local unit and try to make it better.
The officer that recruited me is a USAFA Graduate with 165 missions in an RF-4 over Vietnam, and over 20 years in the Air Force. His simple question to me was this... "If you look at the youth of today and you shake your head about the state of the country, what YOU doing to make it better?" and "Do you still feel like you have something to contribute?" I was hooked and will be till this old Soldier fades away.
"We make a difference in the lives of every person we meet, EVERY DAY...Make it a positive one!"
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I had people who saluted me when i as 1st Lieutenant Senior Member in the military. They told me an Officer is a Officer it's proper Customs and Courtesy .So I saluted them back and went about my business. I'm not stupid enough to try and give someone in the Armed Force's a Direct Order unless they get completely out of line and they need to be corrected. I have a E-4 Specialist in the National Guard up at the Armory who thinks he can do whatever the hell he wants . He stuffs drinks and candy in his pocket , he dosent shave and get a hair cut when comes to formation. He dosent salute a Officer, He's very disrespectful and he's allways walking outside with out his Cover . Uniform all wrinkled boots unbloused shoe laces hanging out. The guy is a walking Soup Sandwich of course he asked me who the fuck are you? And told me to fuck off when i told I'm in the State Guard and he needs to correct himself, Of Crouse i went to 1st Sergeant Childers his 1st Sergeant and i got his attitude taken care of real quick . The next month i found him and a E-5 Sergeant throwing paperballs at each other in the Recruitment Office not doing there job . As i stood at the door watching them. The Ate Up, Fat Ass Corporal was hiding under the Desk giggling like a little school gril while the Sergeant had his feet kicked up on his desk. So i went and got 1st Sergeant Childers agian to correct him. Corporal Phillips is always getting NJP He's a real screw up.
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The Civil Air Patrol Air Force Auxiliary is a Civillan Auxiliary Component for the United States Air Force. I'm a Former Member 1st Lieutenant Senior Member. You're Rank is given to by completing FEMA Course's on line . The Civil Air Patrol Air Force Auxiliary is not considered a part of the Military. The State Guard is considered a part of the States Military Forces Department. All Officer's must complete 6 months of OCS - Officer Canidate School unless they earned there commission as Prior Service by serveing in the Armed Force's. So you are required to Salute them. They hold the same power as a National Guardsmen to a certain extent. You're Commanding Officer should tell you rather our not you're required to follow orders from them more than likely no .Someone who left the Service as an Officer gave up that privilege when they left unless they served 20+ years and retried. So you can basically tell them to kiss you're ass .
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I was a Captain in the CAP once upon many years ago. As our unit was located on an active Air Force base, I would render the proper C&C to any commissioned or CAP officer I encountered. Many of the AD enlisted would salute while others did not. I never got butt hurt over the enlisted members who chose not to salute. I was NOT, after all, a commissioned or Warrant officer in the Federal Armed Services.
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No, CAP and State Defense Forces are not entitled to military customs and courtesies. I don't see the issue with the fat State Guard guy wearing his uniform.
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SFC (Join to see)
CAP is not a component of the military, the National Guard Soldier was and as such falls under AR 600-9 and AR 670-1.
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SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
SFC (Join to see) The Mississippi State Guard is not the same as the Mississippi National Guard. It is a State Defense Force -- part of the military of its State, but not part of the United States Military.
http://www.msstateguard.org/
http://www.msstateguard.org/
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As a long time CAP member (32+ years) and a former USAR Specialist (91Q), the CAP Maj was completely out of line. Sadly, we do at times attract some military wanna-bes, that think they can order real military members around simply because they are an officer in CAP. I've had to correct a few over the years. Years ago when I went through our Level 1 Orientation to CAP, the instructor stressed that CAP rank is not an official military rank. Every time I teach a Level 1 to new CAP members, I stress that to them.
Several years ago, I had a similar experience with a CAP member. They were having an air show at the local USAF base, but because of work, I couldn't commit the working the whole day. I went to the air show along with a former cadet officer who was waiting to go to basic training at Lackland. He corrected the cadets about their sloppy uniforms. The officer didn't know who I was because I was not in uniform, but I knew who she was by name. She was squadron commander of a squadron in another part of the state. I didn't confront her at the time.
A couple weeks later, at the wing commander's call, I had to give a briefing about uniform wear to all the commanders for all the units in the state. At the time, I was the Wing Personnel Officer and had been tasked by our Wing Commander to visit squadrons and activities and make sure uniforms were being worn correctly. You could see her face drop when she walked in and saw me in uniform. It dropped even more when after the meeting, she was called into the Wing Commander's office along with her Group Commander. When she left the office, she was no longer a squadron commander.
Several years ago, I had a similar experience with a CAP member. They were having an air show at the local USAF base, but because of work, I couldn't commit the working the whole day. I went to the air show along with a former cadet officer who was waiting to go to basic training at Lackland. He corrected the cadets about their sloppy uniforms. The officer didn't know who I was because I was not in uniform, but I knew who she was by name. She was squadron commander of a squadron in another part of the state. I didn't confront her at the time.
A couple weeks later, at the wing commander's call, I had to give a briefing about uniform wear to all the commanders for all the units in the state. At the time, I was the Wing Personnel Officer and had been tasked by our Wing Commander to visit squadrons and activities and make sure uniforms were being worn correctly. You could see her face drop when she walked in and saw me in uniform. It dropped even more when after the meeting, she was called into the Wing Commander's office along with her Group Commander. When she left the office, she was no longer a squadron commander.
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I served in the Mississippi State Guard as a SSG for a time and they do not have a weight restriction, so long as they are physically capable of performing their duties. Some level of physical fitness is recommended but not demanded. They Drill in National Guard facilities and attend annual training at Camp Shelby or Camp McCain so perhaps that's where you seen him in the BX/PX?
I am serving as a MSgt in the Civil Air Patrol and most members follow the required Air Force Uniform guidelines but the ones that don't seem to turn up in the most public, most visible places. It of course comes down to leadership and the Squadron Commander. If they are enforcing the rules required then the troops are squared away. If not, you end up with Maj Pop Button (who maybe the Squadron Commander, in which case it would be up to the Group Commander to get her into regs),
As for Grade; a Civil Air Patrol Officer has no Authority over Military Service Members no more then a Salvation Army Officer does. It shows their level of training within the program, as they gain job knowledge and complete required training a member advances in Grade, but sadly job knowledge does not always translate into professionalism.
I am serving as a MSgt in the Civil Air Patrol and most members follow the required Air Force Uniform guidelines but the ones that don't seem to turn up in the most public, most visible places. It of course comes down to leadership and the Squadron Commander. If they are enforcing the rules required then the troops are squared away. If not, you end up with Maj Pop Button (who maybe the Squadron Commander, in which case it would be up to the Group Commander to get her into regs),
As for Grade; a Civil Air Patrol Officer has no Authority over Military Service Members no more then a Salvation Army Officer does. It shows their level of training within the program, as they gain job knowledge and complete required training a member advances in Grade, but sadly job knowledge does not always translate into professionalism.
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