Posted on Feb 2, 2019
COC wants me to reschedule my surgery for NTC. I have a memo from the surgeon, for surgery. What should I do?
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NTC is coming up next month. I have a permanent profile for the injured ankle. I injured it 7 months ago, have had 5 months of physical therapy. I finally got the okay for surgery for chronic ankle instability caused by ligament tears, a couple of days ago. At first, my COC needed some form of confirmation of the surgery. I gave them the date of the surgery and got that taken care of. They then said to reschedule it for after NTC if it wasn't something that needed fixed now. My surgeon gave me a memo, for my COC. Memo was made prior to COC asking for evidence also. The memo states my injuries, condition of the ankle and that it will require surgery. Memo also states that it's the surgeon's "medical recommendation that the surgery be done at the soonest available date". I ETS in June and the surgery is scheduled for 2 weeks from now. Partial recovery is 4-6 months after surgery, 9-12 months for full recovery. Non-operative treatments have not helped. If I reschedule, surgery will occur in April. It's s getting worse and it has given out 4x's in the past month and there is the possibility of further damage to ligaments, increasing the instability by not having surgery done at the "soonest available date".
Others have advised me to go to IG, to address the situation and or just have the surgery since the injury will worsen. How should i go about this? Thank you.
Others have advised me to go to IG, to address the situation and or just have the surgery since the injury will worsen. How should i go about this? Thank you.
Surgery
Posted 7 y ago
Responses: 10
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Your command - meaning your company commander, not a squad leader - gave you a direct order that you must reschedule your surgery?
Or, did "word of mouth" pass through several people that you "should" reschedule your surgery?
Ask for a written order from the commander requiring you to reschedule the surgery. That will clarify the order and place the commander responsibility behind the instructions. If you are being required to do something, there should be no issue with having a signed record of it.
That may require you to go to NTC while on recovery or profile. Company commanders are still required by brigade commanders to meet manning requirements for NTC.
As for surgery and recovery time, you are authorized to extend for medical treatment, and its recovery time. Don't be a dumbass and say you don't "want to be in the Army any longer because...."
It's free medical Healthcare and paid convalescent leave. You won't find that anywhere in the civilian sector after your ETS.
Get the order in writing. Get the surgery. Extend for the recovery time. Find a job while you're waiting around to ETS, or whatever your follow on plan is.
Or, did "word of mouth" pass through several people that you "should" reschedule your surgery?
Ask for a written order from the commander requiring you to reschedule the surgery. That will clarify the order and place the commander responsibility behind the instructions. If you are being required to do something, there should be no issue with having a signed record of it.
That may require you to go to NTC while on recovery or profile. Company commanders are still required by brigade commanders to meet manning requirements for NTC.
As for surgery and recovery time, you are authorized to extend for medical treatment, and its recovery time. Don't be a dumbass and say you don't "want to be in the Army any longer because...."
It's free medical Healthcare and paid convalescent leave. You won't find that anywhere in the civilian sector after your ETS.
Get the order in writing. Get the surgery. Extend for the recovery time. Find a job while you're waiting around to ETS, or whatever your follow on plan is.
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SGT (Join to see)
I think this is the most sound advice here. On a related tangent, I was told that if somebody pulled rank on me while I was performing a medical task (as an MOS-qualified medic in a medic duty position) that one available way to possibly head-off a bad decision at the pass is to request the person's ID (what is now the CAC) so that I can I put in my SOAP notes that this person has directed me to do such and such or stop such and such, which will usually cause that person to remember that they are not a medic. Not saying that's what is going on here, but I would seek clarification.
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SSG Dave Johnston
As a retired medic I saw this a lot during my time in service where Command would make the demand of the soldier to reschedule a procedure because of some exercise. That causing the initial injury to be aggravated requiring additional healing time required prior to corrective surgery, than with an ETS date with in two to six months post NTC Deployment the soldier now has the joys of having the procedure canceled due to his ETS date and having no time for recovery and they can hope like hell that the VA will perform the procedure but, THEY HAVE NO INCOME to cover the expenses of living.
NTC is to validate a Units training prior to deployment to theater and this Soldiers' ETS date is prior to his Units deployment to theater. So, the soldier is on a profile and is limited in his/her capacity to function at 100% during the exercise and... if the soldier ain't going to theater, there's no need for him/her to participate in the NTC exercise; correct. His "attitude" is caused by Commands insistence in having the soldier jeopardize his health and wellbeing by participating in an exercise that has no bearing on his ability to meet its mission requirements within the units parameters because he'll have ETS'ed.
Why is it that 'Command' is willing to exacerbate a soldiers injury(s) for the explicate purpose of having a full complement of bodies? Is there an SGM or Officer that can explain this ???
NTC is to validate a Units training prior to deployment to theater and this Soldiers' ETS date is prior to his Units deployment to theater. So, the soldier is on a profile and is limited in his/her capacity to function at 100% during the exercise and... if the soldier ain't going to theater, there's no need for him/her to participate in the NTC exercise; correct. His "attitude" is caused by Commands insistence in having the soldier jeopardize his health and wellbeing by participating in an exercise that has no bearing on his ability to meet its mission requirements within the units parameters because he'll have ETS'ed.
Why is it that 'Command' is willing to exacerbate a soldiers injury(s) for the explicate purpose of having a full complement of bodies? Is there an SGM or Officer that can explain this ???
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG Dave Johnston it is because part of the validation process for NTC is bringing a certain number of people. Whether they are combat effective or not, the commander must meet a certain minimum threshold of personnel in order to validate at NTC.
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SSG Dave Johnston
And therein lies the rub. this particular soldier if he doesn't go 'Down Range' will spend the entire rotation at Starbucks on Main Post or Cantonment area of NTC. If he does go down range and exacerbates his injury now get MediVac'ed to either San Diego Naval Air for an emergency procedure, or to Home Station for the same, than we end up with the Patient Advocacy Office at either Hospital forwarding an inquiry thru the Div. Surg. Office as to why the soldier with his condition was deployed; and he ends up in Med Hold past his ETS date just because he filled a "Body Count".
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Personally if it was me, I’ll get my surgery done. At the end of the day people/Soldiers are replaceable not your health... Some commands are mission focus and don’t take into account the health and well-being of their Soldiers. If you re-schedule it can send a message that the surgery was not as important as you and your provider claim it to be. Take care of yourself, YOUR future is based upon how well you manage your own health and waiting may have serious consequences for you that can’t be undone.
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Good afternoon SPC J G., how are you doing today? I will give you sound advice as a NCO and as a human being. Get your surgery done like the surgeon recommended. Your health is more important than NTC, especially when you are about to ETS in the next 4 months. So you have recovery time plus transition to worry about........ I will tell you, when it comes to the seriousness of a medical condition like yours, there is no legal action they can do, especially if a professional surgeon is telling you to have it soon as possible to minimize the damage that's already done...... I will say that your direct chain of command from the LT, PSG, to the squad leader don't have the balls to stand up for you or they just not using common sense........ Either way, it's bad on their behalf........ Let your chain of command know that you need to speak with IG and JAG and get your surgery done asap............
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SFC Clark Adams
1SG (Join to see) - Which is why we would butt heads, you discount personal professional experience and observations as not relevant. This flies in the face of anyone placed into a leadership position, experience should tell you for EVERY regulation there can be exemptions. Neither of us have the full or fine details of this Soldier's circumstance, but IMHO it seems that a junior Soldier is not getting an even break or resonable guidance from his CoC.
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1SG (Join to see)
SFC Clark Adams There can exception to most every regulation. There is no exception to a commander's authority in this case.
You've mistaken my response to a post with how I conducted business.
I obtained exceptions to policy/regulation, and taught my Soldiers to do the same.
You have no idea as to what I discounted. In fact, I recognized that every Soldier brought something to the table that could make things more efficient. Your personal experience with regard to the question posed, didn't provide a solution to the problem. With your experience, you could have recommended the Soldier have the doctor write a memo stating the surgery should not be delayed. Instead, you asserted it would harm the Soldier, and the doctor should raise the issue up the medical chain. That's not a solution.
You missed that my response was based on a post that encouraged the Soldier to disregard the commander, and have the surgery. It also claimed that it was sound advice. That course of action would have a strong likelihood to result in negative consequences for the Soldier.
I answered the question, provided reference, and recommended seeking JAG or IG advice, so the Soldier wouldn't act without sound advice.
With regard to bumping heads. Again, you don't know how I conducted business. I encouraged Soldiers to challenge me. My only requirement was they come with a plan/solution and reference.
Humor warning:
Beside that, we can't bump heads when one of us is at parade rest, or in the front leaning rest.
You've mistaken my response to a post with how I conducted business.
I obtained exceptions to policy/regulation, and taught my Soldiers to do the same.
You have no idea as to what I discounted. In fact, I recognized that every Soldier brought something to the table that could make things more efficient. Your personal experience with regard to the question posed, didn't provide a solution to the problem. With your experience, you could have recommended the Soldier have the doctor write a memo stating the surgery should not be delayed. Instead, you asserted it would harm the Soldier, and the doctor should raise the issue up the medical chain. That's not a solution.
You missed that my response was based on a post that encouraged the Soldier to disregard the commander, and have the surgery. It also claimed that it was sound advice. That course of action would have a strong likelihood to result in negative consequences for the Soldier.
I answered the question, provided reference, and recommended seeking JAG or IG advice, so the Soldier wouldn't act without sound advice.
With regard to bumping heads. Again, you don't know how I conducted business. I encouraged Soldiers to challenge me. My only requirement was they come with a plan/solution and reference.
Humor warning:
Beside that, we can't bump heads when one of us is at parade rest, or in the front leaning rest.
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SSG Dave Johnston
1SG (Join to see) - Posted on Feb 2, 2019: I ETS in June and the surgery is scheduled for 2 weeks from now. Partial recovery is 4-6 months after surgery, 9-12 months for full recovery.
1SG (Verify To See)
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SFC Clark Adams: There was no claim of an urgent need to do the surgery in the case under discussion
Posted on Feb 2, 2019: I ETS in June and the surgery is scheduled for 2 weeks from now. Partial recovery is 4-6 months after surgery, 9-12 months for full recovery.
Attention to detail.
1SG (Verify To See)
21 m
SFC Clark Adams: There was no claim of an urgent need to do the surgery in the case under discussion
Posted on Feb 2, 2019: I ETS in June and the surgery is scheduled for 2 weeks from now. Partial recovery is 4-6 months after surgery, 9-12 months for full recovery.
Attention to detail.
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Follow commands orders and have your doctor recommend light duty, this way you will work in one of the cells in Garrison. Don’t wave the opportunity for surgery and full recovery, that would be a monumental wast of authorized benefits, and a solid record of you full medical condition for latter use. You are still a Soldier and bound by the same orders as the rest of your unit, ETS does not give you special treatment. I assure you that there are Soldiers throughout the unit, BN-BDE etc. with the same or similar circumstances. Thank you for your service.
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SSG Dave Johnston
Why is it that 'Command' is willing to exacerbate a soldiers injury(s) for the explicate purpose of having a full complement of bodies for an exercise? Is there an SGM or Officer that can explain this, please???
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CSM Darieus ZaGara
The military doctor first makes a recommendation. The command almost never gies against the physicians recommendation. You nor I have seen the letter, nor are we privy to the discussions between the command and the medical community. When exactly was surgery recommended and what was written is the foundation for a commands decision. There is also a conversation that is had with the Battalion Command Team, they have a rear detachment to be considered. None the less we don’t know what we don’t know. I hope that in this case all appropriate information was considered and the Soldier is taken care of. Thank you for your service. SSG Dave Johnston
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UPDATE: Thank all of you for your service and advice, so far.
A couple of days ago, my ankle rolled and gave out while carrying my duffle bags into work. That was the 4 time in a month. My ankle had increased pain since. Then earlier today, leaving the house, ankle gave out on steps marking the 5 time. I got irritated from the instability and pain, so i went into the ER for pain meds and further advice. ER Dr. diagnosed it as a sprained ankle and suggested surgery be done before April asap, instead of waiting for after NTC. Dr. also stated that i should get another memo from the surgeon, directly stating to recieve operative care asap before NTC, which would be this month.
Thank you all again thus far.
A couple of days ago, my ankle rolled and gave out while carrying my duffle bags into work. That was the 4 time in a month. My ankle had increased pain since. Then earlier today, leaving the house, ankle gave out on steps marking the 5 time. I got irritated from the instability and pain, so i went into the ER for pain meds and further advice. ER Dr. diagnosed it as a sprained ankle and suggested surgery be done before April asap, instead of waiting for after NTC. Dr. also stated that i should get another memo from the surgeon, directly stating to recieve operative care asap before NTC, which would be this month.
Thank you all again thus far.
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SPC (Join to see)
Also i was just informed of this, from SL, "...the paperwork pushed down from brigade saying unless a soldier ets/pcs around ntc, is pregnant or has a spouse due during ntc, or one more I can't remember the soldier's going."
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Doing the math I do not see a full recovery prior to your ETS. So why not try to do the best for your unit and yourself. Get your command involved in trying to reschedule your surgery as soon as you return from NTC. At the same time they can start the paperwork to have you reassigned to a WTU so that you can fully recover BEFORE you ETS. That way you receive a proper rating for your injury so that you dont have to go through the bureaucratic nightmare if you have future problems and need further care. You will be much better served, the command meets their manning requirement for NTC and opens up your slot for replacement more quickly and are able to have your replacement better prepared. Everyone wins. Its always better to try to work with your command for everyone's benefit including your own. Remember your commands job is to complete the mission and take care of soldiers in that order. By giving them an alternative to do both equally well is always the best solution.
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Why is it that 'Command' is willing to exacerbate a soldiers injury(s) for the explicate purpose of having a full complement of bodies for an exercise? Is there an SGM or Officer that can explain this, please???
Why does command want this soldier to have to 'Suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous misfortune under the presumed idea that the VA may, May I say, perform the corrective surgery regardless of the soldier being without an income to cover living expenses if this is the way command wants to proceed.
Soldier, believe it or not try the Command Suite of your Posts Hospital, they have the Patient's Advocates Office it's a start. From there try the Div. Surgeons Office, and yes the IG's office. or there is always a congr.....
Why does command want this soldier to have to 'Suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous misfortune under the presumed idea that the VA may, May I say, perform the corrective surgery regardless of the soldier being without an income to cover living expenses if this is the way command wants to proceed.
Soldier, believe it or not try the Command Suite of your Posts Hospital, they have the Patient's Advocates Office it's a start. From there try the Div. Surgeons Office, and yes the IG's office. or there is always a congr.....
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I agree with CSM Darieus ZaGara Go the light duty route. At the end of the day, it’s always up to your CoC. In 2009 when I was a SSG, my 1SG walked into the OR when I was walking in to eye surgery and told me the BN commander would not allow me to have eye surgery and miss out on a JRTC rotation. My wife was furious and called IG. There is absolutely nothing IG can do, because it is the commander’s right on elective surgery. Get a Unfortunately for them in that decision, I had complications and instead of missing 4 weeks at Fort Polk, I missed 8 weeks in Iraq (but that’s another story.) Get you a light duty profile and get your surgery after you get back.
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SSG Dave Johnston
Why is it that 'Command' is willing to exacerbate a soldiers injury(s) for the explicate purpose of having a full complement of bodies for an exercise? Is there an SGM or Officer that can explain this, please???
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CW3 (Join to see)
If I'm reading what he is saying correctly this is not an elective surgery like PRK, LASIK, or something of that nature. It seems to be an operation to correct an injury that he gained on active duty. I tore my knee up back in 06 and the command said something similar to this because I was getting out. Ultimately it was left up to the VA and we all know how that goes.
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This is a very touchy situation you are in. I have read the comments and I agree to disagree. I used to think I needed to work through pain. I have since realized that the army and your command look at you and I as a number. With that being said, I recommend that you take what paperwork you have and go seek legal guidance.
I don't know a single unit that cant survive with one of their SPC not being able to make it on an NTC location. I could almost guarantee that your superiors would find a way out of this rotation if they were in your shoes. Legal council is your best friend in a situation like this!
I don't know a single unit that cant survive with one of their SPC not being able to make it on an NTC location. I could almost guarantee that your superiors would find a way out of this rotation if they were in your shoes. Legal council is your best friend in a situation like this!
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