Posted on May 5, 2014
Corrective training after 2 weeks of the incident?
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Scenario: SGT Joe Snuffy verbally disrespected a senior NCO and failed to obey direct orders in front of his peers and junior enlisted personnel. That Soldier has never been initially counseled, never received had a derogatory 4856, neither has been quarterly counseled. Can that senior NCO recommend SGT Joe Snuffy for UCMJ action after 2 weeks of the incident? Does that Soldier have every right to an IG complaint? What do you think the outcome would be?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 4
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There is too many ways this could have gone down to know. If it was a matter of a misunderstanding of an order then the ship has sailed on that one. If its along the lines of sedition then it won't matter what counseling he had or not had. It would be equivalent to trying to say well I wasn't counseled that I'm not suppose to steal from the PX so you can't give me an ART 15 for stealing.
Can the Sr NCO recommend the Jr NCO for UCMJ action? Yea, but no guarantee that anything but a counseling from the 1SG for both the Jr and Sr NCO for not getting the prescribed counselings done in a timely matter would happen. Remember it's not just the rater, Sr. rater, and reviewers responsibility to make sure the counselings happen but also the rated individuals as well.
Does the Jr NCO have the right to talk to IG about it? Yes, every Soldier has a right to talk to IG about things they think are wrong in their unit but that doesn't mean he can hide behind IG especially if the acts are severe enough.
What's the outcome, I have no idea. If I'm going to write someone up for disrespect it will happen within 24 hours and it would have to very severe for me to recommend UCMJ action on a single event. So if it's severe enough I would imagine that the Jr NCO would get an ART 15 regardless of the lack of counseling. The Sr NCO would probably as well receive a counseling from the commander about his lack of doing his counselings on time. My take is that it wasn't severe enough to warrant an ART 15 off the bat so a late counseling with corrective action for the Jr. NCO followed up with an initial and quarterly counseling to complete the packet. Then if it happens again I have full documentation of a repeated issue and gave the Jr NCO every opportunity to fix the issue.
Can the Sr NCO recommend the Jr NCO for UCMJ action? Yea, but no guarantee that anything but a counseling from the 1SG for both the Jr and Sr NCO for not getting the prescribed counselings done in a timely matter would happen. Remember it's not just the rater, Sr. rater, and reviewers responsibility to make sure the counselings happen but also the rated individuals as well.
Does the Jr NCO have the right to talk to IG about it? Yes, every Soldier has a right to talk to IG about things they think are wrong in their unit but that doesn't mean he can hide behind IG especially if the acts are severe enough.
What's the outcome, I have no idea. If I'm going to write someone up for disrespect it will happen within 24 hours and it would have to very severe for me to recommend UCMJ action on a single event. So if it's severe enough I would imagine that the Jr NCO would get an ART 15 regardless of the lack of counseling. The Sr NCO would probably as well receive a counseling from the commander about his lack of doing his counselings on time. My take is that it wasn't severe enough to warrant an ART 15 off the bat so a late counseling with corrective action for the Jr. NCO followed up with an initial and quarterly counseling to complete the packet. Then if it happens again I have full documentation of a repeated issue and gave the Jr NCO every opportunity to fix the issue.
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First of all why was the Soldier not initially counseled by a NCO? As much as he/she has failed to maintain military bearing and professionalism by disrespecting a senior NCO, he/she was not given proper counseling either. No its not right that the Soldier did this to begin with, but at the same time the chain of command is going to want to see the counseling packet. If nothing is in it, then I foresee a 1SG taking come correction action first. Reason I say this because it happened in one of my former units.
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CPT Jacob Swartout
Absolutely not, the Soldier will be dealt with by the PSG and 1SG. Leadership would need to look at everything first to see if there is any necessary UCMJ action. The severity would need to be weighed upon too. One could be mistaken for being disrespected or there was intentional disrespecting of a senior NCO that we all have seen happen. Do understand that as leaders we have to take responsibility for their actions. We have to account for the fact that we failed as leaders by not giving the initial counseling on what is expected from the Soldier first. Next someone didn't provide the leadership that should have been done being the first line supervisor. The PSG is supposed to ensure the NCOs were doing their counselings. Despite if the counselings were done or not, bottom line is someone didn't close the loop to ensure this was complete.
That was hounded into me when I was a SSG. We had some very good NCODPs and counselings were heavy classes by our CSM. Wish you could hear him because he was the mark of a great NCO. Total respect for what he did for the NCO Corps.
Depending on how and who is involved, this could go further with more accounted for. Usually the PSG and 1SG will work this through. One would think that we shouldn't have to remind Soldiers to be disrespectful towards senior NCOs. They learned it in BT/AIT. The initial counseling as we both know, is an expected performance that you want from the Soldier while assigned to the unit. You know it's to cover the NCO too, shall a trend of repeating problems continue and a chapter packet needs to be started. The NCO can have all the recorded docs he/she needs. Hope this explains better. I know you understand this because you are a seasoned NCO. I have some good NCOs I will be working with. I will ask them on this situation on what they would do for some more input, if you like?
That was hounded into me when I was a SSG. We had some very good NCODPs and counselings were heavy classes by our CSM. Wish you could hear him because he was the mark of a great NCO. Total respect for what he did for the NCO Corps.
Depending on how and who is involved, this could go further with more accounted for. Usually the PSG and 1SG will work this through. One would think that we shouldn't have to remind Soldiers to be disrespectful towards senior NCOs. They learned it in BT/AIT. The initial counseling as we both know, is an expected performance that you want from the Soldier while assigned to the unit. You know it's to cover the NCO too, shall a trend of repeating problems continue and a chapter packet needs to be started. The NCO can have all the recorded docs he/she needs. Hope this explains better. I know you understand this because you are a seasoned NCO. I have some good NCOs I will be working with. I will ask them on this situation on what they would do for some more input, if you like?
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SFC (Join to see)
Thank you for your input sir, it is greatly appreciated. I think that if that Senior NCO was serious about correcting the problem, he shouldn't have waited 2 weeks.
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There is a good chance that JAG is going to tell his first line and the command to tighten their shot group.
This will go to JAG and Trial Defense Services before IG gets a hold of it.
This will go to JAG and Trial Defense Services before IG gets a hold of it.
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