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Many who have studied Islam have various feelings as to the status of Islam. Please respond as to why you do or do not accept Islam as a religion.
Does Islam rate protection under the Bill of Rights?
Does Islam rate protection under the Bill of Rights?
Religion
Constitution
Islam
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 98
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Islam, as a faith, has been around a very long time, its not as new as, say, Lutheranism. Islam, historically, actually predates Christianity. Is it a legitimate religion? Are ANY religions legitimate? If you read the OT, you will find that Judaism was the first and then the brothers had a fight and one went one way, while the other went another. However, MOST that follow the NT don't even recognize Judaism as a "legitimate" religion, even though the man the call their Messiah preached it.
So, I ask again, is ANY religion legitimate?
So, I ask again, is ANY religion legitimate?
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LTC Paul Labrador
You may want to re-check your history. Islam started in 610AD which is when it is stated that Muhammed recieved his revelations. The first Council of Nicea, which was orderd by the Roman Emperor Constantine, occured in 325 AD. It was here that Christian doctrine as it's known today was finally formalized, and can be argued when the "church" was founded. So even discounting almost 300 years of "unorganized" Christian worship, Christianity has an additional 300 years of longevity over Islam.
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GySgt William Hardy
LTC Labrador - to add to that in response to PO2 Kleeger, Islam is much older than the Protestant branches of the Christian religion dating back only to slightly before the founding of the colonies in the Americas. Only the unorganized churches and the original Catholic Church out date Islam.
May I point out that while I have discussed this topic with a couple of Muslims, the idea that God as known by Jews and Christians is not accepted by many Muslims as the same as Allah, the god of Islam. Why? I am not sure. When we say God is good, many Muslims take it as an attack on Allah. Some of those that have jumped in on the discussion elsewhere will only accept the name Allah and not God. Does anyone here have any information to explain that view? The more I get into it the more I think that terminology is very important. One wrong word and the topic explodes.
May I point out that while I have discussed this topic with a couple of Muslims, the idea that God as known by Jews and Christians is not accepted by many Muslims as the same as Allah, the god of Islam. Why? I am not sure. When we say God is good, many Muslims take it as an attack on Allah. Some of those that have jumped in on the discussion elsewhere will only accept the name Allah and not God. Does anyone here have any information to explain that view? The more I get into it the more I think that terminology is very important. One wrong word and the topic explodes.
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That's a dangerous question with so many politically correct fascists in our government's fat-cat bureaucracy. I would recommend that everyone read the Qur'an, some of the Hadith's, and study the history of Islam, so you will easily recognize the disinformation that surrounds the issue.
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GySgt William Hardy
There is a difference between Islam being a legitimate religion protected by the Constitution and how we view the Radical Islamic Terrorists. I have taken a lot of heat from people in this forum for things I did not say. There are certain things which I will uphold because it is my duty to uphold the Constitution. That in no way blocks my right to express my feeling and opinions regarding the radical side of a religion that is hell bent on destroying our Constitution. I have no doubt that there are many main stream Muslims who only want peace, but they are also very silent on the subject and refuse to denounce the radicals.
I agree with what Capt Jeff Schwager has posted and at the same time I can recognize their rights under the Constitution. I also say we can legitimately discriminate . . . those that will not put Constitutional Law over Shariah law can be label enemies of the State and denied immigration rights and/or be deported for their activities. Why do we have to wait for another Boston bombing before we take any action?
Capt Schwager didn't mention the numerous articles about Muslims who bought land next to places like pig farms and then made complaints and demanded the pigs be removed as happened last year in Texas. What about the Muslims that started working for a business and then demanded the business to stop selling pork? That sort of action does not cut it for me on a personal level. I do not feel like they have the right. If they have difficulty living within our set of laws, they do not belong here. If their way of life in their home country was so bad, they should have more respect for the countries they are immigrating to and obey those laws without protest like in the memes above.
Many cannot separate the difference between Islam and actions of many who are in fact showing their radical side with these stupid protests. As a result, millions in America do not recognize Islam as a religion, but do recognize it as an enemy of our country.
Please read and not read into what I have said. I still say Islam is a legitimate religion protected by the Constitution, but I also understand very well why many do not and support their freedom of speech and expression.
I agree with what Capt Jeff Schwager has posted and at the same time I can recognize their rights under the Constitution. I also say we can legitimately discriminate . . . those that will not put Constitutional Law over Shariah law can be label enemies of the State and denied immigration rights and/or be deported for their activities. Why do we have to wait for another Boston bombing before we take any action?
Capt Schwager didn't mention the numerous articles about Muslims who bought land next to places like pig farms and then made complaints and demanded the pigs be removed as happened last year in Texas. What about the Muslims that started working for a business and then demanded the business to stop selling pork? That sort of action does not cut it for me on a personal level. I do not feel like they have the right. If they have difficulty living within our set of laws, they do not belong here. If their way of life in their home country was so bad, they should have more respect for the countries they are immigrating to and obey those laws without protest like in the memes above.
Many cannot separate the difference between Islam and actions of many who are in fact showing their radical side with these stupid protests. As a result, millions in America do not recognize Islam as a religion, but do recognize it as an enemy of our country.
Please read and not read into what I have said. I still say Islam is a legitimate religion protected by the Constitution, but I also understand very well why many do not and support their freedom of speech and expression.
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Capt Jeff S.
"I have no doubt that there are many main stream Muslims who only want peace, but they are also very silent on the subject and refuse to denounce the radicals."
Silence = Consent.
As to the Muslims claiming to be victims of intolerance and making demands, what they are doing is surreptitiously waging a form of asymmetric warfare against our country by manipulating our laws and using them against us. It's called "Lawfare."
http://www.thelawfareproject.org/what-is-lawfare.html
Silence = Consent.
As to the Muslims claiming to be victims of intolerance and making demands, what they are doing is surreptitiously waging a form of asymmetric warfare against our country by manipulating our laws and using them against us. It's called "Lawfare."
http://www.thelawfareproject.org/what-is-lawfare.html
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It's been about a month or so since I first posted this.
I am a strong supporter of the Bill of Rights, including the religious freedom. The problem is that as I speak with people, both military and civilian, I get a lot of negativity. Sources report that from 15 to 25 percent of the Muslim population are terrorists, leaving 85 to 75 percent as peace loving. One video of a committee meeting shows what is going on in terms of those of those what those 75% are not doing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUPMve4EC3A
Those that are strongly anti-Muslim seem to be so because of the lack of any evidence or action on the part of the peaceful Muslims.
If you go on-line you will find where the radical Muslims post clip after clip about Islamic practices that are not a part of the Koran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6P_UbBsZhc
In this clip, the cleric is telling radicals/terrorists that you not only get 72 virgins but you get their handmaidens also and you get to have sex with all of them. If you check it out for yourself, you will find no such reference in the Koran.
I have been talking with a Marine who is a Muslim and Iraqi veteran and whose father was also a Marine and a Muslim who fought in Vietnam. We have been discussing matters and he is one of the majority who is peaceful. The problem is that the minority is speaking for the majority and everyone is buying into it.
Between the lies of the radicals/terrorists and the non-action of the peaceful followers of Islam, is it not understandable why so many are anti-Muslim? Those that I have spoken to who are very anti-Muslim believe that all Muslims believe the radical view. They believe that Muslims coming into other countries are doing so as a "silent" terrorists who will slowly take over and will have many, many children. They do not recognize that Muslims can be refugees or regular immigrants like anyone else. What they see is the news reports of Muslims in France blocking streets during prayer time and claiming they have the right to do so. They see the riots in the UK where Muslims destroyed their own communities. They see Muslims in the USA who buy land for a Mosque next to a pig farm and then demand that the farmer cease operations and move. They don't see peaceful Muslims standing up and saying positive things or speaking out against the radicals....at least we don't see it on the news.
There is a big problem out there with how we perceive threats, imaginary or real, and it will come back to haunt us if we do not handle things correctly. I do believe that the peaceful Muslims do need to take action and speak against terrorist actions and get that word out so that it is reported on the nightly news. Unitil Americans see more Muslims on the side of peace, attitudes are not going to change.
As I said once before, I find it very interesting that the other sites were so strongly anti-Muslim and here in RP people stuck to the rule of law as set forth in the Constitution.
I am a strong supporter of the Bill of Rights, including the religious freedom. The problem is that as I speak with people, both military and civilian, I get a lot of negativity. Sources report that from 15 to 25 percent of the Muslim population are terrorists, leaving 85 to 75 percent as peace loving. One video of a committee meeting shows what is going on in terms of those of those what those 75% are not doing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUPMve4EC3A
Those that are strongly anti-Muslim seem to be so because of the lack of any evidence or action on the part of the peaceful Muslims.
If you go on-line you will find where the radical Muslims post clip after clip about Islamic practices that are not a part of the Koran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6P_UbBsZhc
In this clip, the cleric is telling radicals/terrorists that you not only get 72 virgins but you get their handmaidens also and you get to have sex with all of them. If you check it out for yourself, you will find no such reference in the Koran.
I have been talking with a Marine who is a Muslim and Iraqi veteran and whose father was also a Marine and a Muslim who fought in Vietnam. We have been discussing matters and he is one of the majority who is peaceful. The problem is that the minority is speaking for the majority and everyone is buying into it.
Between the lies of the radicals/terrorists and the non-action of the peaceful followers of Islam, is it not understandable why so many are anti-Muslim? Those that I have spoken to who are very anti-Muslim believe that all Muslims believe the radical view. They believe that Muslims coming into other countries are doing so as a "silent" terrorists who will slowly take over and will have many, many children. They do not recognize that Muslims can be refugees or regular immigrants like anyone else. What they see is the news reports of Muslims in France blocking streets during prayer time and claiming they have the right to do so. They see the riots in the UK where Muslims destroyed their own communities. They see Muslims in the USA who buy land for a Mosque next to a pig farm and then demand that the farmer cease operations and move. They don't see peaceful Muslims standing up and saying positive things or speaking out against the radicals....at least we don't see it on the news.
There is a big problem out there with how we perceive threats, imaginary or real, and it will come back to haunt us if we do not handle things correctly. I do believe that the peaceful Muslims do need to take action and speak against terrorist actions and get that word out so that it is reported on the nightly news. Unitil Americans see more Muslims on the side of peace, attitudes are not going to change.
As I said once before, I find it very interesting that the other sites were so strongly anti-Muslim and here in RP people stuck to the rule of law as set forth in the Constitution.
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As often as I run from religious conversations, I figured I'd add my own nondenominational $0.02 with a question:
With religions so vast and numerous, who are we to decide which religions are "legit"? To followers, all religions are legit. Surprisingly, Islam is one religions with the most followers worldwide. However, even smaller religions warrant their designation and religious protections offered to the larger ones.
With religions so vast and numerous, who are we to decide which religions are "legit"? To followers, all religions are legit. Surprisingly, Islam is one religions with the most followers worldwide. However, even smaller religions warrant their designation and religious protections offered to the larger ones.
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In my opinion, you have to define what religion means before you can determine what is legitimate and what is not. But to define it, you have to have something that is more or less absolute. As we can see in our own political spectrum, the Constitution and BoRs can say anything that whoever is in power wants them to say. But those two documents, fine as they are, are not religous documents, unless you accept politics as a social religion. So then, you have to go back to the official documents themseleves (i.e., the Bible, the Q'uran, &tc). Then you have to check on the consistency throughout each, to see which is more consistent all the way through, before cpomparing them with each other. After all that, you have to ask yourself what is a religion. I see it as a belief system, a world view, a way of life. By matching up the two areas, which is the most consistent? But then, anything can be a religion, if you accept that there is a God to worship, in what ever form, whether it be a Divine Being, their job, money, or whatever else that play a role as idols in their lifes. For where the heart is, there lies your religion.
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SFC Hardy,
I don't understand how anyone can ask if a religion is "legitimate" when a religion can be anything? Whether you agree with it or not is one thing but when you start to question the right of 3 million Americans to practice Islam thats another thing altogether. Just because the terrorist we fight are muslim doesn't make all muslims terrorists. Most of the major religions of the world have extremist branches, just look at the catholic and protestant conflict in Ireland. You can't "delegitimate" something just because you don't believe in it and/or dislike it. We are at war with people who want us dead, not at war with a religion. The last time somebody tried to scrap a religion we had the holocaust, if Islam isn't protected un the BoR then no religion is.
I don't understand how anyone can ask if a religion is "legitimate" when a religion can be anything? Whether you agree with it or not is one thing but when you start to question the right of 3 million Americans to practice Islam thats another thing altogether. Just because the terrorist we fight are muslim doesn't make all muslims terrorists. Most of the major religions of the world have extremist branches, just look at the catholic and protestant conflict in Ireland. You can't "delegitimate" something just because you don't believe in it and/or dislike it. We are at war with people who want us dead, not at war with a religion. The last time somebody tried to scrap a religion we had the holocaust, if Islam isn't protected un the BoR then no religion is.
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GySgt William Hardy
As stated on the other site, when we as a country have been dealing with Muslim Jihadist for all these years, the enemy becomes the religion itself. People loose site of all the details and start to think of it as the modern Crusades. When all the responses here are very similar, you do not get the true feelings of those that oppose Islam and why they feel like they do...in other words, it become hard to empathize with the other side. The same thing has happened to the 2nd Amendment arguments. Those that have been affected by violence call for the banning of guns. They feel that eliminating guns would end the violence when that is not true at all. A persons view of an particular situation depends on where that person is viewing from...personal involvement, loss of a family member, hunter, sport shooter?? Don't expect everyone to see the world through your eyes.
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WO1 (Join to see)
SFC Hardy,
By using your own logic, just because you get rid of Islam it won't stop all the problems or threats that we face as a nation. But you are right there aren't many people who can look at issues objectively and now it seems to be hard for people to separate opinion from fact and that clouds everyone's judgement.
By using your own logic, just because you get rid of Islam it won't stop all the problems or threats that we face as a nation. But you are right there aren't many people who can look at issues objectively and now it seems to be hard for people to separate opinion from fact and that clouds everyone's judgement.
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Yes it is a legitimate religion. Just because there are fanatics that take things to far behind the bible (Davidians?) Islam is a religion. What would your reaction be if followers of Islam started to decry Christianity as being a sham of a religion based on the actions of David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. Or an even better example is those that bash the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints (LDS, Mormans) based on the actions and teachings of Warrens Jeffs?
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MSgt (Join to see)
Mr President ,
Yes I have seen combat. No I have not had RADICAL Islamists try and kill my family but I have had them attack me personally. Just because there are warped people that kill others in the name of religion does that make every other follower of that religion wrong? During my seven deployments to The Middle East I've met many good Muslims on top of the thousands of those that I dealt with while at Camp Bucca. I don't hold the opinion of the radicals against the good people that I've known. What about the fighting in Ireland? Or the Christians crusades? Or any of the others that have killed others in the name of religion. Radicals in a religion do not make it illegitimate.
Yes I have seen combat. No I have not had RADICAL Islamists try and kill my family but I have had them attack me personally. Just because there are warped people that kill others in the name of religion does that make every other follower of that religion wrong? During my seven deployments to The Middle East I've met many good Muslims on top of the thousands of those that I dealt with while at Camp Bucca. I don't hold the opinion of the radicals against the good people that I've known. What about the fighting in Ireland? Or the Christians crusades? Or any of the others that have killed others in the name of religion. Radicals in a religion do not make it illegitimate.
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Suspended Profile
PO2 Crowder, I'm not sure that you're Jefferson, but historically, Islamic nations and the United States have gotten along. In fact, Morocco, an Islamic country, was actually the first country in the world to recognize U.S. independence. And I'm not sure of your experiences, but in over 4 years spent in Iraq, I saw people just trying to live their lives, much like in any other country on the planet.
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