Posted on Jun 29, 2016
Do you think NCO leadership is the same as it was 10-15 years ago?
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I think that a lot of issues that we deal with today could of been resolved if our leadership skills were better.
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Leadership
NCO Academy
Leadership NCO Academy
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 80
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It is a lot harder to be a good leader these days. The touchy-feely, PC indoctrination has come to the Army. Starting in AIT, new Soldiers are handled with kid gloves, as they are told that if they get their feelings hurt, they can report their instructors and leaders to the Brigade Commander. While at ALC, one of my instructors said that the new Soldiers (IET) have ALL the power in AIT. We NCOs were told to leave the AIT kids alone, don't even make on the spot corrections unless they are making a spectacle of themselves, and even then be mindful of their feelings. With the deck stacked against us like that, instilling and maintaining discipline gets tougher and tougher.
So these kids have no discipline and a sense of entitlement when they get to their first units. Just this morning, I saw two young Soldiers fall out of a formation run, and their NCO told them to get back in formation. They stood around and did nothing. The NCO told them to start pushing. They stood around and did nothing. Finally, the NCO told them to get in the front leaning rest until the formation looped back around to collect them. Only one of the two did it. No discipline.
The only thing we can do is put it on paper (4856). But they know the system too. They know that as long as they don't do the same offense three times, they are good. After 30 days, you do the follow-up counseling and if they kept their noses clean with regard to THAT offense, they are good unless they do the same thing again later. They know all this. So counseling doesn't always work.
The "Old School" Senior NCOs tell you to crush them, but we can't do that anymore, as feelings get hurt and the next thing you know you are standing in front of your BN or BDE commander explaining why you hurt PVT Snuffy's delicate feelings. There is no more "crushing in place." At least not in any unit I have been in in the last 9+ years. The only people who talk tough are the ones who do not have to directly deal with undisciplined Soldiers.
So these kids have no discipline and a sense of entitlement when they get to their first units. Just this morning, I saw two young Soldiers fall out of a formation run, and their NCO told them to get back in formation. They stood around and did nothing. The NCO told them to start pushing. They stood around and did nothing. Finally, the NCO told them to get in the front leaning rest until the formation looped back around to collect them. Only one of the two did it. No discipline.
The only thing we can do is put it on paper (4856). But they know the system too. They know that as long as they don't do the same offense three times, they are good. After 30 days, you do the follow-up counseling and if they kept their noses clean with regard to THAT offense, they are good unless they do the same thing again later. They know all this. So counseling doesn't always work.
The "Old School" Senior NCOs tell you to crush them, but we can't do that anymore, as feelings get hurt and the next thing you know you are standing in front of your BN or BDE commander explaining why you hurt PVT Snuffy's delicate feelings. There is no more "crushing in place." At least not in any unit I have been in in the last 9+ years. The only people who talk tough are the ones who do not have to directly deal with undisciplined Soldiers.
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SGT Mary G.
SFC Richard Giles - One of the first things I learned about inspections while doing PLL and Parts in the Motor Pool, later in Third Shop, was to do everything correctly the first time, check and double check so as to always be prepared - because otherwise preparing for an IG could be hell!
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SFC Richard Giles
SGT Mary G. - You are so correct and another benefit of doing it correctly is after a while it becomes muscle memory and that's all you know. One of things I always asked of my Mechanics was whenever possible fix things the right way, it may take longer but at least you know it's done right, you do this enough it becomes etched in your brain and it's the only way you know how to do things...... THE RIGHT WAY.
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SFC Richard Giles
Once they see what right looks like, when they are put into a position of leadership they will pass that onto their troops. And they will always remember you taught them the right way. Influence, isn't that part of what being a leader is about?
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These young NCOs need to be allowed to lead, and part of that is making mistakes. Checking rooms in the barracks before PT, leading PT, trusted with vehicle maintenance, etc. Too many leaders take the "my way or the highway" route which undermines initiative and creativity. I realized I didn't need a bunch of me(s) walking around and that the 90% solution was great. Soon I would ask about something only to be told it was already done. Leaders up the chain have to be able to underwrite their juniors mistakes. That being said don't confuse mistakes with conspiracies.
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MSG (Join to see)
sir with all do rspect, i had sn ncoes and officers, that would not do their job at home, but would rather waist govt time to do it at drill, lost training, because we had to fulfill required on line trainng, as this is a force negative then we should implement incentive training for guard/reserve i no longer serve but still believe in the guard/ reserve
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SFC Richard Giles
I think that is the biggest mistake the military is making these days. You're not going to grow if you don't make mistakes (and I don't mean the ones involving life or death situations) and learn from them and the other stupid thing they need to fix is stop promoting because someone meets TIG/TIS, that to me is the another big mistake that needs to be fixed. You cannot become proficient or efficient if all you have is TIG/TIS. Just my 2cents worth.
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MAJ Mark Wilson
CMSgt (Join to see) - My first Platoon Sergeant told me one day "you are down here for six months to a year, some of us are here for our whole career". It was just a comment made as I was complaining about something coming down from Brigade, but it obviously left an impression on me. My take away was the NCOs should be capable of running everything. My job was to plan and help resource. I often also had to be the guy that went back to my command with issues raised by my NCOs. Sometimes it was when we were asked to employ our equipment outside its capabilities or personnel issues that could be resolved with help. The bottom line is that it is incumbent on senior NCOs and officers to raise good NCOs. You reap what you sow. The other issue I keep hearing about on here is micro managers and toxic leadership. There are ways to deal with these. The best way is to gain someone's trust. The quickest way is to confront the individual in a professional manner. Sit down with them and explain how if you are given the space and latitude to do what you need to do life can be much better for them. You need to be well prepared before you do this. Ask for a chance to prove your point, and by God knock it out of the park. Granted it's easier the closer you are to them in rank, but I have seen this work across wide gaps in rank. Remember that it is give and take and communication is key. Its amazing how these deficiencies are built. A bad experience years and years prior are generally the source. Don't question every order, but if something strikes you as odd or wrong, ask for clarification (respectfully). A good OPORD would give you all the info you need, there is no reason why other orders should not follow suit. Just don't be a smart ass about it.
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SFC Richard Giles
SSG Shawn McInturff - I think I read somewhere and it might've even been in this thread, but it made sense to me. Micromanaging is a leaders way of telling his/her subordinates I don't know how to lead. Something along those lines.
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SFC (Join to see)
It's much harder now to effect the kind of change you could just 15 years ago. Leaders handcuffing NCOs, combined with the mindset of newer generations, has made it difficult to be the kind of leader so many want to be, based on their own military upbringings.
But as NCOs, we should spend less time lamenting over past times, and more time finding ways to adapt to these changes. That's the bottom line. If we don't adapt, we will fail. I think that you are absolutely correct when you say that our leadership skills need to be better.
It's much harder now to effect the kind of change you could just 15 years ago. Leaders handcuffing NCOs, combined with the mindset of newer generations, has made it difficult to be the kind of leader so many want to be, based on their own military upbringings.
But as NCOs, we should spend less time lamenting over past times, and more time finding ways to adapt to these changes. That's the bottom line. If we don't adapt, we will fail. I think that you are absolutely correct when you say that our leadership skills need to be better.
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