Posted on Jul 10, 2016
Do you think the police could use a escalation of force similar to the Army?
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I have friends and family that are police officers. I know the police force has some sort of sop for lethal Force. They're also outfitted with a non-lethal weapons. I think it would be beneficial for the police force to demonstrate to the public and their Rules of Engagement and standard operating procedures for lethal Force.
Politics
Police
Rules of Engagement (ROE)
Service
Protest
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 14
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They already do. The question is are they sufficient, are they followed, and are they understood by the public.
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SSG (Join to see)
That's why I believe a thorough demonstration of the process would be beneficial. They could also show the ability of a situation to escalate directly to lethal force.
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SGT (Join to see)
Activist critical of police undergoes use of force scenarios
We've seen protests all across the country after police officers have been accused of shooting people who aren't armed. Jarrett Maupin, a vocal critic of pol...
Something similar to this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g
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SFC Anthony Beck
SGT (Join to see) - Great video. More citizens need to view this video and / or get a chance at the same shoot or don't shoot training the Revron went through.
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The video that SGT (Join to see) posted is definitely something that could be useful.
The general public will likely never fully understand the ROEs of Use of Force. I have been a long time supported of Law Enforcement and when I went through Use of Force Training myself I was surprised at what I learned just with how many thing justify lethal force. That is something that hard headed people will never agree with though, even with those classes.
One of the main things we learned is when it comes to having to deal with someone you as an officer (or in my case a SF Augmentee) have to have the advantage. It's not supposed to be a fair fight, it's supposed to be unfair and in your favor as the person trying to regain control of the situation at hand. The problem is too many people in the public don't see it that way. I know my fair share of people that would say that cops should never use a higher level of force than the suspect is using but they don't understand how quickly things can go south and just how extreme they can as well. As seen in that video it goes from him just verbally arguing with a guy to the guy pulling a gun and shooting him.
Unless people see how quickly things can get bad they will never understand. Unfortunately even in videos on YouTube of cops getting injured or killed most of the people commenting are still swaying towards the side of the criminal because there's people out there who just have a hatred of the uniform and badge plain and simple.
The general public will likely never fully understand the ROEs of Use of Force. I have been a long time supported of Law Enforcement and when I went through Use of Force Training myself I was surprised at what I learned just with how many thing justify lethal force. That is something that hard headed people will never agree with though, even with those classes.
One of the main things we learned is when it comes to having to deal with someone you as an officer (or in my case a SF Augmentee) have to have the advantage. It's not supposed to be a fair fight, it's supposed to be unfair and in your favor as the person trying to regain control of the situation at hand. The problem is too many people in the public don't see it that way. I know my fair share of people that would say that cops should never use a higher level of force than the suspect is using but they don't understand how quickly things can go south and just how extreme they can as well. As seen in that video it goes from him just verbally arguing with a guy to the guy pulling a gun and shooting him.
Unless people see how quickly things can get bad they will never understand. Unfortunately even in videos on YouTube of cops getting injured or killed most of the people commenting are still swaying towards the side of the criminal because there's people out there who just have a hatred of the uniform and badge plain and simple.
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every state is different for use of force. in some states you can shoot a fleeing felon or at a moving car, and than some departments have guidelines which are even more restrictive, where I worked you couldn't fire a warning shot (NYC) maybe in a more rural area you could. There's a saying in LE ... it's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. We all want to go home to our family's at the end of our shift so during those 8 or 12 hr shifts you do what you have to do to do that, both you and your partner.
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CPT (Join to see)
That suspect also wants to go home. If LE misses an arrest because he didn't shoot, so be it, it's not easy to go home because the LE killed someone either, a lot of guilt etc. however, the guilt from a suspect getting away is easier to live with. IMHO.
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TSgt William Meyer
CPT (Join to see) - the suspect isn't getting shot at because he's being arrested, they are getting shot at because they are attempting to cause severe injury or death to the officer.
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CPT (Join to see)
Thank you TSgt William Meyer I know my description is not accurate, I realize that's not the reason, and because I'm not a LEO, I'd say take the scumbag down, but that's part of the problem, it's the perceived attitude of LEO's that the communities have, and as we can see, by what's going on across America, that perception has to change. Thanks again for your input.
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As far as police forces demonstrating this to the public, they do this all the time in most of their community policing programs; they do it at schools, community centers, libraries, and even churches when asked.
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Though there is not a "UNIVERSAL" guideline, the Use of Force of Continuum is like the Militaries escalation of force. I think the problem or issue is Cops find themselves in situations, sometimes quickly with no time to give it any thought and they do what they feel necessary, which is decided in an instant...sometimes, going back and looking at what happened, it's realized maybe not so much force was actually needed. Being a cop is not easy...they are always on their guard, and rightfully so...and like any other business...there will be some who should not be in this business...like people...there are bad apples...but most are not...
I think cops should have gun with rubber bullets...and they should try and use their Tasers or stun guns more often, then using their guns.
I think cops should have gun with rubber bullets...and they should try and use their Tasers or stun guns more often, then using their guns.
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SSG Stephan Pendarvis
That is kinda like "The fog of war" mentality. Things happen so fast and no matter how much you train unfortunate things are going to happen...before you know it your gun is out and someone is dead. The police force, like the Army, will not know the bad apples for months to years. Everyone has stuff in the basement that they carry with them all their lives. Things and labels that make up what we call our personality..good and bad stuff. This stuff or conditioned past cause to react a certain way...and to have prejudices. No matter how much we are trained there is no ignoring what we believe about people. And although we are to BE better and know acronyms and sayings....our prejudices and fear and hate still get the best of us....and that is where all the training going out the window....and we revert back to our basic instincts based on our conditioned pasts and learned behavior.
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SGT Brian Wall
In situations like riot control rubber bullet, bean bags, rubber buckshot, and paintball guns are all used. However to have an officer conducting traffic stops to have rubber bullet does that mean the criminals have it to. All officer have a baton and tazer as well as Oc spray. Situation dictates what tool will be used due to the quick escalation of situations less then lethal means are going to be disregarded.
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Sgt Kelli Mays
Cpl Kenneth Darby - This is true, but at least not as many would end up dead and just terribly injured instead.
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Their use of force is sufficient in my opinion. It allows for more options in the escalation of force than the military does.
I don't know if additional demonstrations are needed. The less lethal options police use are already available for demonstration on line.
I don't know if additional demonstrations are needed. The less lethal options police use are already available for demonstration on line.
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See SSG Roderick Smith's statement. In reality the current military ROE actually came from Law Enforcement and not the other way around.
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Use of force for law enforcement is:
Presence
Verbal
Chemical weapons
Hands-on tactics
Electronic immobilization devices
Impact weapons or munitions
K9
Lethal force
The level of threat dictates the level of force used. The quote offender unquote determines the level of force used by law enforcement in incidents where the use of force is found to be justified.
Presence
Verbal
Chemical weapons
Hands-on tactics
Electronic immobilization devices
Impact weapons or munitions
K9
Lethal force
The level of threat dictates the level of force used. The quote offender unquote determines the level of force used by law enforcement in incidents where the use of force is found to be justified.
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CPT (Join to see)
Am I right in thinking, the suspect escalates the situation and the LE is only reacting or does the LE exhausts ALL means to deescalate and uses leathal force as a last means even if his life is not endanger or uses leathal force only when his life is in danger. Last question, if a weapon is in the vicinity of a suspect, does not yelling, shouting, screaming etc. escalate the situation by confusing all parties, rather than using a calming voice to possibly deescalate the situation. The mere presence of a weapon mean the suspect will escalate. Trying to get a little insight. Thanks.
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Cpl Rc Layne
You are exactly right in that the suspect determines the level of force used in the encounter. There is nothing in writing in any lesson plan that I ever taught that said you had to exhaust every level of available force available when your life or the life of another is being threatened.
The legal standard for law enforcement use of force, and I can't remember the name of the exact case is "shock the conscious " of a reasonable person. Google that phrase and it should come up from SCOTUS. Basically that if you use any level of force, you have to be able to justify why you did what you did.
Just as law enforcement have the right to self defense and the obligation to defend others, civilians have the right to self defense, and can choose to defend others. Justification for their actions will always be the key.
Corrections Officers fall into the same standards, with some additional caveats. Corrections Officers by necessity are allowed to shoot at fleeing inmates because of the dangers they pose to the public.
ALL are taught to shoot center mass of what they can see of the target, and to shoot to stop the threat. Shooting to wound or shooting to kill is not in any use of force lesson plan I have ever seen.
Hope this helps, and I will be happy to answer any questions I can.
The legal standard for law enforcement use of force, and I can't remember the name of the exact case is "shock the conscious " of a reasonable person. Google that phrase and it should come up from SCOTUS. Basically that if you use any level of force, you have to be able to justify why you did what you did.
Just as law enforcement have the right to self defense and the obligation to defend others, civilians have the right to self defense, and can choose to defend others. Justification for their actions will always be the key.
Corrections Officers fall into the same standards, with some additional caveats. Corrections Officers by necessity are allowed to shoot at fleeing inmates because of the dangers they pose to the public.
ALL are taught to shoot center mass of what they can see of the target, and to shoot to stop the threat. Shooting to wound or shooting to kill is not in any use of force lesson plan I have ever seen.
Hope this helps, and I will be happy to answer any questions I can.
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Those pesky warning shots are often problematic and our rules of engagement are as clear as, and restrictive, as bobbing for apples in boiling pea soup.
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