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As a member of the so-called "New" Navy, this question has been asked and talked about around my command for the last few months. I'd like to hear some different perspectives about it
Posted in these groups: 
Women in the Military
Gender
Women in the Military Gender
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 62
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MCPO Roger Collins
LTC (Join to see) - I don't remember ANY service chiefs saying that, but I do remember Obama being against homosexuals marriage before he was for it. I can't say with 100% certainty, but it's not unusual today for the separation to exist in the Mess Halls.
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Capt Jeff S.
Since the repeal of DADT, same sex assault has gone up. And it is likely much higher than being reported because most victims don't want to have to deal with the humiliation of having to report it. I don't see it as a good thing that we are even having to have this conversation. The military's job first and foremost is WARFIGHTING. When you start turning it into a social experiment you diminish its effectiveness.
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CPO Cory Cook
Capt Schwager, I disagree with you for the following reasons. Not sure how bootcamp works these days, but when I entered the Navy, boot camp removed our individuality and forced us to become a unit. That said, it took the Chief and others understanding who we were and see our weaknesses and help us address them successfully. Each military unit requires it's individual human members to be able to act independently and efficiently with minimal thinking about it. How you develop your people depends on how you develop them mentally as well as technically. Why else is leadership training required for advancement and increased responsibility/accountability of our charges. Ask your troops what type of leader they would wish to follow. Understanding human relationships is a social experiment that will never be complete.
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LTC Ken Bowers
Capt Jeff S. - Upon viewing the attached post I pucked a little in my mouth! You are dead on in your assessment, and I would add that the Same sex assault rate may contribute to the suicide rate for the same reason! Unfortunately, the services will have to put up with the government imposed social engineering, and suffer through it. Eventually, the pendulum will swing back the other way.
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I am seriously going to be bothered by the loss of lives, both male and female, that is going to occur because of this decision. It is a prime example of those who have never served, or served in only a basic billet, playing with something that they don't understand, and don't care to understand. I sincerely believe that the Secretaries of the various services should be picked from the best of the retired generals and admirals available. But I was only a lowly enlisted Marine, what do I know?
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I have no problem with an Integrated Navy...
But this shit about changing Rates/Job Titles to Gender Neutral Ones sits Raw on me. "Seaperson"
Glad I got out Before everyone started Wearing their Chief's Uniform Top.
But this shit about changing Rates/Job Titles to Gender Neutral Ones sits Raw on me. "Seaperson"
Glad I got out Before everyone started Wearing their Chief's Uniform Top.
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PO3-There's a huge difference between a military where we look at individual merit, independent of gender, and one where we cease to acknowledge it. Yes, I would be bothered by a military, a place of work, home of worship, or nation where we had become so deluded as to denounce the very things that make us human.
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It bothers me. I came in a year before all the nonsense started. I was out of boot camp before the politics with the 4th Battalion commander got busted. She wanted to prove that makes wouldn't respect us as marines if we didn't pull our own weight. I find it funny that she was busted for that when they wanna turn around and do gender neutral boot camp and such. As a female Marine, I didn't ask for equality. Especially not combat designations. Good for those who want it but I certainly don't.
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I retired from the army as an infantryman 20 years ago. I know that things has changed since then so I have no dog in that fight. I do feel that the decision should be based off the soldiers serving in combat arms since that is the field that it will have the impact on. I do think that it can be a problem for certain MOS's . As of right now I haven't seen combat arms being overran by females. However, I am curious about the outcome.
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With the R.O.E's that get put in place....The Military has already been neutered. SMH
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In my post-Navy life, I write an opinion column for a The Richmond Times-Dispatch. Here are my thoughts:
NAVY DROWNS IN A PC TIDE
Posted: Saturday, January 16, 2016 10:30 pm
Robin Beres
Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus (SECNAV) is on a mission to create a unisex Navy and Marine Corps. It seems anything that highlights the differences between men and women must be eradicated, ignored or covered up.
In what is likely his last year running the world’s greatest Navy and Marine Corps, SECNAV is going full speed ahead on his plans to create total gender neutrality — common sense, costs and morale be darned.
Last week Mabus sent a memo to the chief of naval operations, Adm. John Richardson, directing the Navy’s top admiral to review all of the Navy’s job titles that have the word “man” in them.
Mabus wrote: “Lastly, as we achieve full integration of (women into) the force ... this is an opportunity to update the position titles and descriptions themselves to demonstrate through this language that women are included in these positions. Ensure they are gender-integrated as well, removing ‘man’ from their titles, and provide a report to me as is practicable and no later than April 1, 2016.” A similar order was sent to the commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen. Robert B. Neller.
Let it be noted, however, that almost all of the Navy’s ratings (jobs) that include “man” in their titles have been open to women for decades. And many of these titles date from the earliest days of the Navy. They are steeped in historical lore.
***
The first mention of the clerical rating of yeoman goes back to 1798. The term hospital corpsman dates to 1898. New-to-the-Navy sailors who have not yet qualified for a rating are referred to as seamen, firemen and airmen. And the term “seamen” has been around as long as mankind has been sailing the seas. Young officers in training have been called midshipmen by navies since the Napoleonic era.
This latest brainchild of SECNAV has exasperated active-duty members and veterans of both the Navy and the Marines.
Visit the comments on any news article about the issue. Almost to a man — and a woman! — sailors and Marines are unanimous in their disdain for this move. As a female who served for nearly 23 years, I can assure SECNAV that most females are darn proud of their job titles. There is a definite sense of pride and esprit de corps that comes from earning a time-honored and traditional title.
***
In 2009, President Obama appointed Mabus as the 75th secretary of the Navy. During that time, SECNAV’s job description has not changed.
According to the Navy.mil website, the responsibilities for the position are relatively straightforward: “SECNAV is responsible for, and has the authority under Title 10 of the United States Code, to conduct all the affairs of the Department of the Navy, including: recruiting, organizing, supplying, equipping, training, mobilizing, and demobilizing. The Secretary also oversees the construction, outfitting, and repair of naval ships, equipment and facilities. SECNAV is responsible for the formulation and implementation of policies and programs that are consistent with the national security policies and objectives established by the President and the Secretary of Defense.”
Nowhere in there is any mention of social engineering or gender-neutralization. But that hasn’t stopped this guy from pushing his political-correctness agenda.
During his tenure, he has pressed for gender-neutral uniforms for men and women. Unfortunately, his idea of gender-neutrality means putting women in slightly altered men’s uniforms. SECNAV insists that unisex uniforms are a priority so female sailors will no longer be segregated because they wear different clothes. Apparently, it hasn’t dawned on him that most servicewomen would much rather wear a professional-looking and comfortable uniform that has been properly tailored to fit the female body.
Mabus has also been in a big hurry to integrate females in all military units. He created a public spat last September when he stated during a press interview that he saw no reason to grant the Marine Corps an exception for including women in its ground combat units. (The statement raised eyebrows given the fact that the Marines hadn’t yet requested an exception.)
When the Marines did release the results of a months-long, multi-million-dollar experiment with mixed-gender units, the test showed that the mixed units performed most critical battlefield tests worse than all the all-male units.
Rather than take those results under consideration, Mabus told NPR that the Marines who commissioned the study had set it up for failure. He implied that the women assigned to perform in the trials were unqualified and among the physically weakest of Marine females.
Marine Sgt. Danielle Beck, a participant in the study, told The Washington Post that SECNAV “completely rolled the Marine Corps, and the entire staff that was involved in putting this in place, under the bus. ... Everyone that was involved did the job and completed the mission to the best of their abilities.”
***
Why does Mabus feel it’s so important to spend precious dollars on new uniforms and to order ridiculous and expensive reviews of historical job titles — not to mention the cost of updating manuals, directives and instructions?
It is no secret that the Navy is dealing with a dangerously small budget. In recent days, The Wall Street Journal has run columns from former Secretary of the Navy John Lehman and Seth Cropsey, director of the Hudson Institute’s Center for American Seapower, warning that the Navy doesn’t have enough ships to do its job. Deployments that are far too long, along with shortages of missiles, spare parts and regular maintenance, are draining the Navy’s power and fighting ability.
In his six-plus years in office, Mabus hasn’t earned much devotion from his troops. Many resent the former Democratic governor of Mississippi’s heavy-handed social engineering plans and the seemingly deaf ear he has turned toward the sailors and Marines who serve under him.
That’s too bad, because if he did listen to them, Mabus would know that today’s female sailors are just like their male contemporaries. They simply want to do their part in keeping freedom strong and sea lanes open in an increasingly dangerous world. Secretary Mabus should follow their lead.
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Twitter: @RobinBeres
NAVY DROWNS IN A PC TIDE
Posted: Saturday, January 16, 2016 10:30 pm
Robin Beres
Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus (SECNAV) is on a mission to create a unisex Navy and Marine Corps. It seems anything that highlights the differences between men and women must be eradicated, ignored or covered up.
In what is likely his last year running the world’s greatest Navy and Marine Corps, SECNAV is going full speed ahead on his plans to create total gender neutrality — common sense, costs and morale be darned.
Last week Mabus sent a memo to the chief of naval operations, Adm. John Richardson, directing the Navy’s top admiral to review all of the Navy’s job titles that have the word “man” in them.
Mabus wrote: “Lastly, as we achieve full integration of (women into) the force ... this is an opportunity to update the position titles and descriptions themselves to demonstrate through this language that women are included in these positions. Ensure they are gender-integrated as well, removing ‘man’ from their titles, and provide a report to me as is practicable and no later than April 1, 2016.” A similar order was sent to the commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen. Robert B. Neller.
Let it be noted, however, that almost all of the Navy’s ratings (jobs) that include “man” in their titles have been open to women for decades. And many of these titles date from the earliest days of the Navy. They are steeped in historical lore.
***
The first mention of the clerical rating of yeoman goes back to 1798. The term hospital corpsman dates to 1898. New-to-the-Navy sailors who have not yet qualified for a rating are referred to as seamen, firemen and airmen. And the term “seamen” has been around as long as mankind has been sailing the seas. Young officers in training have been called midshipmen by navies since the Napoleonic era.
This latest brainchild of SECNAV has exasperated active-duty members and veterans of both the Navy and the Marines.
Visit the comments on any news article about the issue. Almost to a man — and a woman! — sailors and Marines are unanimous in their disdain for this move. As a female who served for nearly 23 years, I can assure SECNAV that most females are darn proud of their job titles. There is a definite sense of pride and esprit de corps that comes from earning a time-honored and traditional title.
***
In 2009, President Obama appointed Mabus as the 75th secretary of the Navy. During that time, SECNAV’s job description has not changed.
According to the Navy.mil website, the responsibilities for the position are relatively straightforward: “SECNAV is responsible for, and has the authority under Title 10 of the United States Code, to conduct all the affairs of the Department of the Navy, including: recruiting, organizing, supplying, equipping, training, mobilizing, and demobilizing. The Secretary also oversees the construction, outfitting, and repair of naval ships, equipment and facilities. SECNAV is responsible for the formulation and implementation of policies and programs that are consistent with the national security policies and objectives established by the President and the Secretary of Defense.”
Nowhere in there is any mention of social engineering or gender-neutralization. But that hasn’t stopped this guy from pushing his political-correctness agenda.
During his tenure, he has pressed for gender-neutral uniforms for men and women. Unfortunately, his idea of gender-neutrality means putting women in slightly altered men’s uniforms. SECNAV insists that unisex uniforms are a priority so female sailors will no longer be segregated because they wear different clothes. Apparently, it hasn’t dawned on him that most servicewomen would much rather wear a professional-looking and comfortable uniform that has been properly tailored to fit the female body.
Mabus has also been in a big hurry to integrate females in all military units. He created a public spat last September when he stated during a press interview that he saw no reason to grant the Marine Corps an exception for including women in its ground combat units. (The statement raised eyebrows given the fact that the Marines hadn’t yet requested an exception.)
When the Marines did release the results of a months-long, multi-million-dollar experiment with mixed-gender units, the test showed that the mixed units performed most critical battlefield tests worse than all the all-male units.
Rather than take those results under consideration, Mabus told NPR that the Marines who commissioned the study had set it up for failure. He implied that the women assigned to perform in the trials were unqualified and among the physically weakest of Marine females.
Marine Sgt. Danielle Beck, a participant in the study, told The Washington Post that SECNAV “completely rolled the Marine Corps, and the entire staff that was involved in putting this in place, under the bus. ... Everyone that was involved did the job and completed the mission to the best of their abilities.”
***
Why does Mabus feel it’s so important to spend precious dollars on new uniforms and to order ridiculous and expensive reviews of historical job titles — not to mention the cost of updating manuals, directives and instructions?
It is no secret that the Navy is dealing with a dangerously small budget. In recent days, The Wall Street Journal has run columns from former Secretary of the Navy John Lehman and Seth Cropsey, director of the Hudson Institute’s Center for American Seapower, warning that the Navy doesn’t have enough ships to do its job. Deployments that are far too long, along with shortages of missiles, spare parts and regular maintenance, are draining the Navy’s power and fighting ability.
In his six-plus years in office, Mabus hasn’t earned much devotion from his troops. Many resent the former Democratic governor of Mississippi’s heavy-handed social engineering plans and the seemingly deaf ear he has turned toward the sailors and Marines who serve under him.
That’s too bad, because if he did listen to them, Mabus would know that today’s female sailors are just like their male contemporaries. They simply want to do their part in keeping freedom strong and sea lanes open in an increasingly dangerous world. Secretary Mabus should follow their lead.
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Twitter: @RobinBeres
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MCPO Roger Collins
Problem is most agency heads are of like mind. I still remember a department head discussing abortion and the Pope. In a badly used Italian accent, "You no playa da game, you no mama da rules."
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CPO David Sharp
No leader can change a person's gender, remove a handicap or change educational levels. What an effective leader will do is assess his/her personnel and draw the best qualities from each individual to make a quality and cohesive unit from the composite talents.
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MCPO Roger Collins
CPO David Sharp - Exactly! To paraphrase Rumsfeld, you go to war with what you have. I don't recall having a choice of who the assignment desk sent me.
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Yes I do and for an unlimited amount of reasons. It's all about being politically correct now. It's fine, I was proud to be an American when I thought that it meant God-fearing, having guts, and living by principles, and so much more. Now I'm beginning to be embarrassed to be associated with this weak-minded, politically correct, God-hating, people. God bless the USA? HE has!! Look around! How about "God forgive America" (before we taste His wrath on Her).
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Mostly how the way neutral is misused. In the Army, general officers have used to mean, when referencing physical fitness, as "same event, different standard". Not very neutral and certainly not much different that what came before it.
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