Posted on Feb 17, 2014
SGT Enlisted Management Branch Nco
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Interested to hear what people's thoughts are with this. It continues to be highly debated and I can see both sides. That said, if we make the standards THE SAME across the board, what other objections could there be? Is it that easy? Well, I know it isn't, but are we ready to explore these options? A soldier shouldn't be defined as male or female. A soldier should be defined by their ability to accomplish the mission. The ability to lead and be a member of the team.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>That said, I do understand the obvious concerns. Female health/wellness in a combat environment and the potential for an increased amount of sexual harassment cases among many other possible concerns.</div><div><br></div><div>Once we identify those concerns, we can make a plan to overcome any adversary. We understand this topic isn't going away anytime soon. What are your thoughts?&nbsp;</div>
Posted in these groups: Images Women in the Military
Edited 10 y ago
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SFC Explosive Ordnance Disposal Specialist
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I love this topic. It's hot news and it has magnified at least my own personal "downfall" of not winning the apparent gender lottery at birth.
My opinion on this remains as such: the standards for the Infantry and other male only combat service MOSs should not be lowered just to integrate females. It won't sit well with the males, and eventually it will eat at the morale of the females. If a female is strong enough to make it through training and survive the mission physically and mentally she should have a shot.
I am not infantry. I have never thought I was ever close to doing the same job; no matter what my job presented at any given cinema worthy point in my mission.
I have my doubts that the integration of women in the Infantry will ever be successful. The almost genetic quality of transmission through the ranks from senior to junior of which the attitude towards women in combat is transmitted will be the inevitable brick wall. Males in Infantry are proud of their achievements. They are proud to have overcome things that females cannot.
I am not Infantry so I have to settle for just serving my country when many other women in my peer group cannot or will not.
There are real general differences in the way men and women are built both physically and emotionally. There are exceptions on both sides however. There are males who didn't make it through Infantry Training and there are females who can. The numbers on both sides are small no doubt. The standards for the training shouldn't be lowered. The occurrence of females in Infantry should be rare. Limited to the ones who truly make the cut and who take it upon themselves to take care of themselves in such a way as to never slow the mission for any reason specific to being female. I would hope for any females who earn the Infantry MOS on such standards would be taken seriously as a part of the team.
Just my opinion.
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SFC Explosive Ordnance Disposal Specialist
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SGT (P) Jaynes, thank you in turn for your input. I assure you PT is not an area I excel at. I do ok for a female but no where near the male standard. The two exceptional exception females you spoke of are the type of rare I spoke of in my original post. Maybe even they with their outstanding fitness accomplishments could keep up in an Infantry mission. I have no way to tell. Physical abilities aside the mental, hygienic and emotional aspects would all also be a challege. There are methods of addressing them all though. I have in the past with fair success. I am not necessarily trying to stand on a soap box and shout demands for women to be ushered into combat MOSs here but I am saying if there are the rare few that can then I think they should be allowed. The training should stay as difficult as the mission will undoubtedly remain demanding. I don't believe that watering down the ranks as you put it will solve anything. The rare few should be tough enough to not even make a difference in the status quo other than another Soldiers to help get the job done.
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SGT(P) Section Leader
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I hear you, SFC Warden. Part of me really wants to agree that for those exceptional Soldiers, yes, there should be openings. I just know that the Army will never work that way. For the same reason that USASOC has no problem letting women try out to be selected among its ranks, it has a stringent series of selections processes that safeguard the quality of the applicants who make it though to the operational side of the house. We unfortunately do not, and it is for that reason that I just can't get behind it. The benefit to the few doesn't outweigh the potential damage it could do to the many. Just my thoughts.
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SFC Explosive Ordnance Disposal Specialist
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SGT (P) Jaynes I know the army won't work that way. I know the reasons that women integrating into Infantry and other Combat Arms will not work even for the rare few. I appreciate your opinions though and the degree of diplomacy you use in giving them.
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SGT(P) Section Leader
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Thank you as well SFC Warden, as for my ostensible professionalism....even a broken clock tells the right time once a day.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
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I believe the Army will let the Marines do all the testing, and use those results to determine the road ahead. There's no point in retesting when the Marines are already applying the more stringent criteria of the two branches...
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SSG Cannon Crew Member
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"applying the more stringent criteria", such as changing the standards since a bunch of them failed pull-ups/chin-ups?
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Cpl Tim Kirk
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Participating in combat operations is not the same thing as being trained, equipped and deployed for the purpose of offensive combat operations in combat arms specialties.  Defensive perimeter patrols and manning a turret for security are not the same. 

 

Is the object here equality?  Okay, let's drop bifurcated fitness standards for men and women.  Why should women be able to take a substantially easier fitness test and get the same/better consideration for promotion than a man--and if you think that making fitness tests easier for everyone is the answer you already show your bias.  Why are women not required to register with the selective service in order to receive federal educational benefits?  Is anyone railing for equal treatment under the law in these respects?

 

When a man enlists he is usually given a first, second and third choice for MOS preference.  Even if infantry is listed nowhere, many men find themselves in the 0300/XXB occ-field.  Now they are expected to serve alongside and rely upon people who are inherently physically weaker and frail, and this increases risk to life and limb.  If weaker team members only got themselves killed that would be one thing, but this is not the case. 

 

In other endeavors these differences are acknowledged.  In which sports do women compete for top ranks with men.  Boxing?  Women can qualify for male weight classes--why is this not being pursued?  Basketball?  Let's unite women's college basketball and the WNBA with men's programs.  Football? (Right.) 

 

But let's look at less strenuous sports.  Women don't even compete with men in golf, bowling or curling.  When I noticed that women and men don't compete with one another in top tier curling I was baffled.

 

Rowing is a very good example.  Not only do men and women not participate together, women's' times are consistently lengthier than men's'.  Even more relevant: stress fractures to the ribs are very common among women in crew--their skeletons are less able to endure the same strain as men in the SAME sport. (Even though they are slower.)  It is a fact that women, though mentally tough, are physiologically weaker and more frail.  This isn't a bigoted rant; it is science.  Basic science.

 

This doesn't mean that there aren't some women who can't out perform some, or even most men, in certain physical tasks, but the fact that these cases are very exceptional proves my point.

 

 Offensive combat ops are extremely physical and, at times, push military personnel beyond their training.  Relevant, objective objections to women's inclusion within the infantry are not the same as reasons utilized in arguments against integration of persons of diverse ethnicity or sexual orientation.

 

When I was in, I consistently performed 20 dead hang pull-ups, over 60 sit-ups in less than 2 minutes and ran 3 miles in under 18 minutes to earn points towards cutting score.  Where are the politicians/civil rights activists clamoring to give women the same opportunity to prove themselves by the same tests as men? (Queue crickets chirping here.)

 

...that's what I thought.  (For the record, civil rights activists have maintained that requiring women to meet the same physical standards as men is an exclusionary practice--which is an acknowledgment that women are inherently physically weaker and more frail.)

 

Let's keep in mind that we are currently discussing these issues in desert conditions.  I have participated in combat ops in forests, jungles--both in Asia and Central/South America--as well as deserts.  At times I had to carry up to three radios, two PRC 77's and an FM--for coordinating air.  And let's not forget the encryption gear.  Let's see these women hump in Panama and Honduras under these conditions.  Mount Mammer-Jammer and a certain Ridge near San Onifre seemed demanding at the time, but the rigors of SOI didn't compare to duties actually performed in the FMF.  

 

These women's SOI graduations are not strides in equality; they are a tribute to making exceptions in the name of inequality--that is, a tribute to hypocrisy.

 

Require women, across the board, to register with the selective service, require women to meet the same physical standards as men--without making tests easier, and put female recruits in the same pool for occ-field selection as men--those would be steps towards true equality.  (This should be the order in which these steps should be implemented.)

 

What we see here is a dog and pony show that will make our Corps less combat effective and result in unnecessary casualties.

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SGT Cda 564, Assistant Team Sergeant
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Kudos to you sir for extending my understanding of our vernacular... I had to google bifurcated! LOL!
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Cpl Tim Kirk
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The founding of today's selective service took place in 1947, long after our nation was founded.  The civil rights act of 1964 was signed into law 50 years ago.  There has been plenty of time to rectify disparate treatment because of gender.  The reason women don't register with the Selective Service is the same reason women take less strenuous Physical Fitness Tests, which is the same reason women shouldn't be in combat arms MOS's: they are inherently physically weaker and more frail.  That is science, not bigotry.  My point is that if the object is equality for women we should start with registration with the selective service, then move on to the elimination of disparities in physical fitness requirements across the board, then, if all of that works out, we can address the issue of inclusion of combat arms.
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"Four Women Pass Marine Corps Infantry Test For The First Time" Army headed in same direction?
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Edited 10 y ago
SPC Lyndsay M. &nbsp;ABSOLUTELY OUTSTANDING PROGRESS!!! &nbsp;Women have been exposed to combat for many years. &nbsp;In OIF/OEF 159+ women died and 800+ women were wounded. &nbsp;It is time to stop pretending women are safe behind some imaginary and/or occupational lines and recognize servicewomen are continually placed in harms way; and give them the training, equipment, and status needed to fight the enemy on the same terms as our servicemen. &nbsp;Also, maybe if women are armed with M60s, M1911s, and K-Bars, we might see a rapid decline in the number of SHARP complaints. &nbsp;Warmest Regards, Sandy<div><br></div>
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Ma'am I'd have to disagree. with your last statement, I don't think the armament of M60s, 1911s, and K-bars, even though the Army really doesn't use the M60 or the M1911 anymore, I don't think it would decrees the SHARP complaints. And actually there are more complaints by Men then women in the Army as far as SHARP. I think the SHARP issue is going to be best won by education, prevention and intervention. If we are giving our soldiers weapons then we are going to have an increase in soldier death, which as we are moving past the War mind frame we have had for the past 10+ years wouldn't be a good thing.
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SSG C Ied & Irw Instructor
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Ok we really need to dispel this myth of equality.  Equality in importance, but not in ability.  Women in the Military are crucially important, their roles are just as important as that Grunt on patrol.  Men and Women ARE NOT equal in ability, it has been physiologically proven and psychologically proven.  Yes there will always be exceptions, but they are not the rule.

 

If Women want the Blue Cord and the Crossed Rifles, go for it, but it would be in the best interests of our Military to have segregated Infantry units.

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SGT Enlisted Management Branch Nco
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While I see where you are going with this CPL and can even agree that we are made up completely different, there are a few better sources that you could refer to.  The corps gazette is much like the army times. A great place to become informed of what's going on, but not a great place to get hard facts. You might refer to Gen Dempsey's letter in a post further in the thread. You may find it useful and even eye opening to the future of this matter. While many of us will agree or disagree with the matter, I believe changes are coming. How we react to those changes is crucial for the future of our military. 
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SGT(P) Section Leader
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I don't understand the general assumption that Dempsey in spearheading this thing of his own volition. He's literally caving to Congress. He either doesn't care because it in no way effects him directly, or doesn't get it because there are about thirty layers of command insulation between him and what is actually going on out here in Afghanistan right now, or anywhere for that matter.&nbsp;
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SSG Shawn Vann
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I have a couple of thoughts on this topic, that I didn't notice in any of the other comments.  First of all let it be known that I do believe that females have the ability to physically handle anything that males can.  I've know many in my career that could out do 90% of the males around them and keep up with the other 10%. 
My issue is the psychological impact on the male infantryman.  Follow my logic if you would.  In the American culture men are raised to protect women from day one of our being.  If daddy goes away on business first words to son are "take care of mommy while I'm gone".  Now for those of us that do have children consider this scenario.  You have two children.  A son and a daughter.  You have to make a choice of which one gets shot, not necessarily killed but just shot in general.  There are no other options you have to decide between them.  Based on the way we were raised the mass majority are going to choose the son.  Now let's apply this to combat.  If you are in a fire fight and you see your male battle buddy take a round or jump on a grenade you will be able to continue the fight a little easier, than if it were a female battle buddy.  We will have more of an I failed to protect mentality.  We may hesitate and cost more lives.  Agreed with either case we will just about all need some form of counseling regardless of their gender. But it's the immediate impact on the battlefield is the concern that should be addressed.  I've had this conversation before with both male and female soldiers and most took it to heart and gave it consideration and possibly changed or confirmed their stance on the subject.  Others simply said that the males would just have to suck it up. 


The other thought I have has been addressed a little as far as hygiene.  Take the march to Baghdad in Iraq for example.  Say for instance females were in those type of units.  It was 3 weeks to a month to get there.  Somewhere during this time the females cycle would come into play and the facilitation of addressing those needs isn't practical in that type of environment.  That's not even including medical needs from potential infections. That's all I'll say on that thought.


As far as sexual harassment and assault/rape goes.  Whether the number of cases goes up or down doesn't matter, what does is that whatever dipshit that puts his hands on a female soldier against her wishes should be fried to the full extent that the UCMJ allows.
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SGT Suraj Dave
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Our military and its leadership is liberalizing right now. Its not about being combat effective, its about being "Diverse". With that said, our government would much rather see a dead 'diversified' platoon with males and females .... then a living platoon of all males. If our government cared about being combat effective first, this females in combat arms debate would have never started to begin with.

 

Science has proven then Men as a whole are physically different then females as a whole. Our leadership believes that wasting the millions of dollars sorting out which females can and cant do combat arms, then making them their own separate standard for PT, makes much more sense then the system already in place.

Give it a couple years, and they will start letting people with Asthma and Diabetes in the military because its "Unfair" to them.

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Sgt John Henry
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Lyndsay, one matter to consider is, how many females are actually interested in serving in the USMC or USA Infantry?
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SFC Communications Chief (S6)
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I feel sometimes the more important question at the end of the day is how many of them want to be able to IF they wanted to actually do it. 
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SSG Squad Leader
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They past the training but the job isn't open to them so they are being sent other places for more training. The Army has stated that it isn't going to send any through training until the MOS's are open to woman.
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SSG G3 Tasking
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Edited 10 y ago




Ok, I have two options on this topic. Great that a female Soldier
can keep up with the guys in the Infantry got it.



Where my two concerns come into play:



One,  A psychological
mindset, not about women in uniform, but the men.  Reason being is there have been training scenarios
applied to a combat zone where there are three Soldiers down with injuries, two
males one female, two females one male, etc.. Each scenario had the males having a
higher risk injury than females, resulting in females being attended to first
with the minor injuries. It is hard wired in a male’s brain that when we see a
female in danger, hurt or in need of help, that men are more likely to help a
woman before we help another male counterpart.  Example car broke down on the side of the
road, men are more likely to stop and see if a female needs help, compared to a
lower rate if the car on the side of the road belonged to a man, and the same
principle applies in the Army and combat.  A male Soldier will instinctively go and treat
the female Soldier first even though a male Soldier has injuries that maybe more
life threatening resulting in the Army having more causalities, which could have
been prevented.



Two, I serve in the Army Field Artillery.  Currently I’m on a Paladin, a tracked
howitzer. My Soldiers and I live inside this vehicle anywhere from a week until
mission complete, this could be a day, week, month, 3 months, 6 months depends
on the conflict.  Yes the female hygiene
could be a task in its self.  Not trying
to sound like a smart ass, but I could have my Soldiers put a bag over their
head or blindfold themself while my female Soldiers change into a new uniform,
or goes to the bathroom using a bucket inside my gun, that’s practical right ?
Saying she is ok with it of course?  Next
comes the work, Infantry yes they do a lot of walking with rucksacks and yes it
can be strenuous,(not comparing MOS’s by any means) but inside my Gun, I will
have 104 lb rounds, (which is about 80% of a females body weight saying the
average female is 130lbs) that need to be picked up from the floor and loaded
to about the height of your shoulders nonstop during fire missions, the slower
my rounds go down range the higher the possibility that Soldiers who are
calling for fire will die.  I also have
an ammo vehicle that needs to be loaded, it carries a triple digit number of
these rounds that are also 100lbs plus, all being loaded by hand, and has to be
done within 30 minutes for our time standard to be met.



So in my OPINION, no one elses. I’m saying from a Section Chief point of view in a Field
Artillery MOS.  That if a female Soldier
can do, wants to do, what we do, how we do it, then let’s go, I'm about making
the Army as strong as possible as long as possible.  I don’t have time for gimmicks and recreating
the wheel.  I’m about putting rounds down
range in a timely and accurately way without skipping a beat, but if this all
about politics leave it at the door, only serious inquires please respond, this
is not a “or best offer” type of situation, you either have it, or your don’t.



 





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SGT Scout Observer
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im 50-50 on this ive seen women perform infantry tasks the same as a male counterpart so women are capable but there few far and in between. we can debate health issues on this but in all honesty being an infantryman is not about physical fitness its a big part yes but its also a attitude. its about going beyond the standard across the board. the infantry doesn't go by the regular standard the army goes by it has and always will have a higher standard of military bearing, its not for the weak of fainthearted, its about knowing your better than the average joe who thinks hes tough because he goes to the gym every day. its the guy who doesn't get offended easy and is usually really arrogant, the infantryman is not nice and he always goes for the kill, and he never settles for second best. so its more than just being one of the guys its about being the scariest mother f*#%er in the valley of the shadow of death, and expert of combat, and is death himself. i personally think some women can do it, and the infantry is about a few good men not standards across the board. and if we keep the infantry that way and not treat women any differently then lets see what they got, anybody can pass the basic stuff. its after that is when you earn the title of infantryman &nbsp;&nbsp;
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