From AIT to First Duty Station, Why do we fail our soldiers?

Probably.

The discipline gap in AIT is because drill sergeants are gone. Once that happened, any non hacking scrub who duped their way into the NCO corps could become an AIT platoon sergeant. None of the personnel in TRADOC are vetted in any way other than passing a PT test.

Any NCO out there knows that most NCOER's are a sham, and the buddy system is just as prominent in the army enlisted population as anywhere else...

Why not do selections for TRADOC cadre assignments where you will be building the next generation of the ARMY? Have a board selection process where people actually compete, and demonstrate their competency, leadership, and an actual WANT to be a part of the TRADOC system?

I know many people who hate their job in TRADOC-land, and do the bare minimum to not get slammed on their eval.

Make TRADOC AIT cadre assignments competitive and a position of respect and prominence again, a la drill sergeant, and I think the discipline gap will close again. Combine this with removing the "college campus" atmosphere of AIT, and get back to being the military again, and I think we have a formula for success.

This is an interesting topic as I'm at Corry Station to finish up schooling and in a bit of a position where I just want to say $%^& it.

All of the MOS-T's are placed in leadership positions at the schoolhouse and we're supposed to help mentor the AIT's, when we try to give an on the spot correction for some issue such as improper conduct, appearance or the like, the responses have ranged from simply walking away to complete disrespect and all we can do is take their name and let their leadership know.

Trying to find the right way to get the point across to these kids that their current behavior is not going to fly outside of the schoolhouse is proving to be a challenge.

This has been my complaint for about the last decade. I've seen too many NCOs who first complain about officers doing their job, but the NCOs aren't doing it! I don't want to stop a private and correct him especially after an NCO just walked by him and didn't fix the problem. It isn't my job to mentor a private, but all I've seen for too long are NCOs who aren't doing it. I did it when I wore hard stripes. I've walked the walk. Now is the time for NCOs to stand up and say, "I got this sir, you go hit a golf ball or something". And then I'll happily walk away knowing things are square.

I had great NCO leadership when I joined. If not for that, I would not be a year away from retirement at 30.

There isn't just one reason for the lack of respect and discipline. In addition this doesn't mean ALL new soldiers have this deficiency.

Yes it is a leadership issue when it comes to enforcing standards. I've seen many leaders pick and choose what standards to follow based on their own opinions which causes in issue of continuity in the training of soldiers. NCOs displaying negative views in front of soldiers, and senior leaders "clipping the wings" if junior leadership in front of soldiers.

The second major factor is lack of personal responsibility and humbleness of being a soldier with new recruits. In my opinion I believe the concept of breaking down a soldier and rebuilding them has been lost. We don't break them down anymore we only build them up, which causes a sense of entitlement and lack of gratitude and respect for the uniform they wear.

While I agree in the move towards a more professional approach in leading soldiers instead of toxicity, I feel as though we have moved from one extreme to another soldiers are taught from the get go now that they aren't supposed to have their feelings hurt and even go as far as expecting leadership to ask them nicely to execute tasks. Again I support a lot of the "professionalism" concepts but we are forgetting what the army is...I fighting force to protect this country from the enemy as well as kill and destroy the enemy....this isn't a business or a summer camp. The enemy doesn't care of your feelings are hurt or that they offended you.

Again.....yes we need to approach things in a mature fashion but we don't need to handle soldiers like fragile fine china.

Soldier's for the most part seem to be pretty disciplined in the MP Corps. I have been to MP school as an insert student as an SGT/E5. The MP IET OSUT soldiers do not have a graduation ceremony for BCT; they just wake up one morning and its MP school time and they have the same Drill Sergeant (DS). From my observations, the DSs do not let up on the discipline just because the BCT portion is complete. So fast forward to graduation and then onto the regular Army units. Also from my observations, newly graduated solders in the MP Corps seem to be highly disciplined, but you will have a few that will try the system. As far as soldiers getting comfortable around NCOs and also Officers, that actually makes me uncomfortable and its an uneasy feeling because I feel that I am failing them so I have to tighten up on the leash so to speak and when I do, I do it tactfully of course and I use real talk by just being honest and asking them if they think they can be my best friend after spending six months in the Army. I appreciate parade rest but if we are working and moving I tell them to walk/ work and talk at the same time to increase efficiency. The OPs discussion is very good mention. I will thumbs up him.

SGT Butler,

I agree with you 100%, very good topic.

I see and hear about this in all the ranks from top to bottom. This won't stop until everyone gets on the same page.

The sad truth is that there are those that want to lead and those that want the paycheck and none of the responsibility. As Leaders we are not only responsible for ourselves, but our Soldiers and the mission.

The best we can do is continue to enforce the standards and make the corrections accordingly.

This is a really good topic. I've noticed the decline in discipline in the Army over the past 8 years. I was prior service and when I went through AIT I was in another Barracks, where we were treated as adults, and we conducted ourselves for the most part as such. Being stripped of a stripe when I transferred it was a little difficult to adjust at first to standing at parade rest for people that had way less time and experience than me, but I tightened my boots and conducted myself as I should. The Army was getting bigger and the war was still hot. The seed of the evil was the relaxed recruiting standards, we were letting anyone in, and granting all sorts of waivers. Then those guys came in and grew up pulling all sorts of shenanigans, and got away with it, and got promoted. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, so those guys became our toxic leaders. Our Drill Sergeants have been stripped of their power to instill respect and discipline, they have been removed from the AIT area, and with that essential element, IMHO, we have lost the Soldiers. They are given everything, and earn very little. So we cant call them "Privates" (even though they can call us "Sarnts" this makes me laugh at how dumb that is) They're allowed to have cell phones, and do all the things we could only dream of when we were first coming in. So by the time we get them, they have a serious degradation in their discipline. So now we're the bad guys when we firmly attempt to wedge our boots in their 4th point of contact to get them to do something. We're the evil dictators when we TELL not ASK them to do something. So even trying to reinstall some discipline when they finally arrive at their first unit, it is met with huge resistance. If we could get them to dedicate the energy and effort they put into complaining and video games and googling ways they can get around having to actually work, we would have an amazing well oiled group of young people to lead. We just cant forget how this affects us, so that when we finally make it to the top and become policy makers we can make a difference. Till then we have to do what we can with what we have. NCO's make it happen, even when its tough!

The way we do it at the commands I have been at is the E-5s begin with the training, discipline, and good order. If this does not work, then we as E-6s do everything legally within our power to turn things around. This is because if it gets to the chief (E7) level, the consequences can become much greater, as they are generally the ones who can start any NJP proceedings.

While I do not think that we need to revert back to the military of 20-30 years ago when service members where being physically assaulted, I do feel that we in the E5-E6 range need to more available to us to ensure we can properly train and correct our sailors, soldiers, airmen, and marines. A certain level of respect and discipline has been lost in our ranks towards what would be the junior NCO's and that is where the changes for juniors SM's should start.