Gay Army couple says chaplain barred them from marriage retreat Your thoughts? Should Chaplains have the right to do this to soldiers? http://www.armytimes.com/article/20131121/BENEFITS07/311210042/Gay-Army-couple-says-chaplain-barred-them-from-marriage-retreat Gay Army couple says chaplain barred them from marriage retreat A same-sex couple at Fort Irwin, Calif., says they have been denied participation in an Army marriage enrichment program because of their sexual orientation, even though they are legally married.

Gay Army couple says chaplain barred them from marriage retreat

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Posted >1 y ago

I see a lot of interesting responses interspersed amongst the bickering on religion. My final thought on the original topic is that the military needs to figure out how to adapt to changing times. If this means adding non-religious counselors to the chaplain corps or having the chaplains maintain off-base services for gay couples, then it needs to happen. There are a lot of things that need to change, and it goes beyond whom is allowed to attend marriage retreats and singles retreats, and who sponsors these events.

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SSG David Gladu

Posted >1 y ago

It seems to me that mortal conviction are beginning an outlawed concept because every one has the right to be an individual. And no one has a right to tell me what to do. I even heard that pedifiles have the right to do what they do getting back to the homosexuals a group was invited to the white house and had their pictures taken flipping the bird in front of paintings of Ragon and Bush this is a fine example of what they think of the United States the real under laying reason has nothing to do with military but the total destruction of any form of decency in all aspects of our life. As for the religion question it is all about attacting mortal principles

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SSG (Join to see)

>1 y

Good for the chaplain Homosexuals arean abomination to the Lord therefore all chaplains should bar them from all regilious actavities especially dealing with marriage.

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Posted >1 y ago

This was initialy an issue where the right to attend a military function was dennied from eligible individuals, but we have turned it into a question of sexual choices and God's status on it. Not till lately, I thought that homosexuality is a sin but this was only because I grew up in a society where it viewed it as a set act and an abomination. I have taken time to read the Bible keeping away my acquired knowledge about the topic and found out that, it is God's purpose for mankind and a gift of freedom to many. Take time and talk to some of this individuals and u would be facinated about how much ignorance u may have been exercising. Compare statistics of the lenght of gay and heterosexual marriages, positively influencial personalities, the childhood of kids brought up by a gay couple against hetero sexuals; I mean, it is just a hand full of this gay couples but they have proudly adopted kids abandoned by heterosexual individuals. I know many gays who are best at their job both in the military and out there in the civilian sector. Despite the challenges most gay kids go through in schools, they still walk their way through the top. It seem to me that the issue with homosexuality is the challenges that aclaimed heterosexual face from this individuals as ethicacy and job performance is concern. It is so sad to say, but most of those who claime to be heterosexuals, have had, or still have sex with their wives, girl friends or boy friends annally and yet, find it wrong! Is it the sex or the fact that a guy and a guy (girl n girl) deeply loves each other the way that u can't?

There is a clear difference between doctrine and christianity. Most christians today go after doctrine rather reading the Bible and seeking understanding from God. If u quote the Bile as it is, then i tell u that there is everything wrong about life including going to war. That said to all of u who comdem homosexuality rather than lust which we all fall into, in our everyday life. Did u not also read the part whic say that if thou be without sin, he should be the first to cast the first stone? How there u judge this ppl and conclude upon their lives even when God hasn't. I am a charismatic presbyterian but many Presbyterians don't evn know what that means coz they still live in the age of doctrine. Call homosexuality a sin, genetic mutation, punishment or what ever but i will tell u this; it is not by choice that this guys and girls feel the way they do. It is a tremendous gift of life; healthy as much as a heterosexual can be. Can we talk about saving lives and fixing the disfunctional nature of most of our systems rather trying to perfect God's creations? Thanks.

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Cpl Ray Fernandez

Posted >1 y ago

After a few days away from this discussion, I came back to see what others think. I'm a bit shocked at how some would use their faith to justify the exclusion of a portion of the military and society. I think when the founders of this great country put into words <i>"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness", they were stating a mission statement and a goal for us to eventually achieve. We must also look at the history of our country's involvement around the world to fight for freedom of those oppressed by evil governments around the world and even in part a Civil War in which blacks were no longer enslaved, and gained rights and citizenship that we're still working to fix to make sure they are treated as full equals. I cannot support treating any American let alone a person willing to serve this great country to be treated as a second class citizen or that because their love may not be traditional that they cannot be treated as equal as a conventional couple. If we expect other nations to treat their people in a fair and just manner, we must hold ourselves and our leaders to the same standard otherwise everything I have been taught and believe we stand for will be a great lie. <br></i>

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SFC Rocky Gannon

>1 y

Ray

So very well said, and great points!!!

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SSG Robert Burns

Posted >1 y ago

FYI I am stationed at Fort Jackson where the Chaplain school is. Strong Bonds is religious based despite what is stated here. I've spoken to several of them about it just today.

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SGT James P. Davidson, MSM

Posted >1 y ago

1LT Travis H.:

"I completely agree with the principle of your argument, however, "Southern Baptists" do not believe..."

Of this I am aware. It tends to be a 'regional' thing, though one is hard-pressed to find 'true' "Southern Baptists" outside of the south. As well - my comment did not include Southern Baptists as 'all-inclusive'. The ones I have experienced either in or from the 'back-woods' of the south, however, are firmly against it. The majority that I have met outside of that realm, however, 'are' Southern Baptist because that's what the sign in front of the church says... and tend to flow with many Protestant denominations in the acceptance of the babbling.

But we are off-topic. ;)

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SFC(P) (Join to see)

Posted >1 y ago

Search thy selfe!

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SFC (Join to see)

Posted >1 y ago

Good. I think some restraints and some sense of normalcy should be applied here. I, for one, enjoy going on these retreats as long as they are kept for real marriages between two people of opposite sex. I would stop going if it were any other way though, not complain about it like a child. Hint, Hint!

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SFC Rocky Gannon

>1 y

SSG Dwyer

So your saying that that couple is in a fake marriage and would not get anything out of the retreat? And if you enjoy them and get so much from them why would you stop if that couple was in the retreat with you? Is it not about you and your wife and building your relationship? Not so sure what your meaning about a "Real" marriage??

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SFC (Join to see)

>1 y

What constitutes a "real marriage"?

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SFC(P) (Join to see)

>1 y

Real marriage? Lolol. The only real marriage is one that goes beyong benefits and interst to sacrifice and love for each other. Marriage shouls not be based on the sex of the couples coz there r lots heterosexuals who got marriage for BAH and insurance. Hint hint...!!

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SSG David Gladu

>1 y

I am glad I am out of the Military because of this reason. The gay community has infested all aspect of life. We are told that this is perfectly normal well it is not. unfortunately the military has caved into these people and with it has thrown out the high moral standards I remember. I know that there has all ways been Homosexuals in the military and many have served honorably but that does not excuse what is happening today Gays are coming out and forcing us to accept them and if you do not you are a bigot. I believe that the standards of the military and the rest of the country have been allowed t slip away and the vacuum that is left behind is being filled with the likes of Myle Cyrus. discussing. Is this the new normal? not in my world. As for homosexuals well Greece culture had fallen Romans and the Nazi's have all gone the way of the cookoo bird and we are next I fear.

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SFC (Join to see)

Posted >1 y ago

DADT was revoked in 2010*2011 if I'm not mistaken. And at current moment the military is allowing LGBT couples in and offering them benefits, yes?? OK so this is a military rule/regulation which the military Chaplain should have to abide by. Unfortunately The military's system on RSO is different from the civilian sector, CHs I know, when faced with something they cant handle refer onto another CH that can. These were service members 1st and foremost, which is what the CH has to provide spiritual resource for regardless of anything else. If he allowed personal opinion and his disdain for their preference to determine, then by all accounts he is definitely breaking an EO reg and this will probably hit IG. The Chaplain doesn't have the right with the green suit to pick and chose who will attend, everyone in this green suit should be treated equally. IMO

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SSG Ronald Limbaugh

Posted >1 y ago

In reading the article, it seems that this Chaplain could have lost his religious sponsorship, had he allowed same-sex couples to attend. At this point in history, I think this is where the military needs to relook their stance on religious partnerships when it comes to Chaplains. The military needs to ensure that all are afforded the same opportunities. In that, there should be concessions made by these religious institutions, in order to allow some latitude for allowing equality, no matter the individual's orientation or faith. If a religious institution refuses to allow their chaplains to minister to any and all service members, then that institution should not be allowed an official presence. Eventually those service members that fall under that faith will either have to provide for themselves, or the institution will have to ease up restrictions concerning military chaplains if they wish to still have a part in ministering to those that follow them. This chaplain chose his faith over soldiers. I know it's a fine line to travel, since he's pretty much screwed ether way, but in this instance he should have allowed another chaplain to take over and recused himself from the issue. The retreat was, apparently, the Strong Bonds program.

"Strong Bonds is a unit-based, chaplain-led program which
assists commanders in building individual resiliency by strengthening
the Army Family. The core mission of the Strong Bonds program is to
increase individual Soldier and Family member readiness through
relationship education and skills training.

Strong Bonds is conducted in an offsite retreat format in order to
maximize the training effect. The retreat or “get away” provides a fun,
safe, and secure environment in which to address the impact of
relocations, deployments, and military lifestyle stressors."

-http://www.strongbonds.org/skins/strongbonds/home.aspx

Nowhere on the site for Strong Bonds does it specify that the retreat is for man-woman couples only. There are several different programs, such as Strong Bonds for single Soldiers, Strong Bonds for Couples and Strong Bonds for Families. None of which discriminate against same-sex couples (at least according to the website). I've seen a couple of other comments the state the retreat is focused on man-wife couples and the difficulties between the two in a relationship, but i cannot find any information that specifies it is meant for traditional couples only. It states that it is for married couples. The chaplain made a religious call that discriminated against service members that should have been afforded the opportunity to attend.

Welcome to Strong Bonds

This is the homepage of your site.

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PO3 Brenton Holbrook

>1 y

I understand what you are trying to say, but by restricting other service members access to a Chaplain of their faith because the Chaplain don't officially recognize gay marriage is sort of redundant and yet again unfair, don't you think? My Chaplain refused to perform a gay marriage when asked recently and he wasn't blasted. He respectfully told the couple that it was against his morals and beliefs and what would happen had he performed the ceremony. They understood especially in the times that we are in, and went elsewhere for their ceremony. They didn't publicly blast him all over CNN or whatever, they just politely went about their way. We need more people like this. The reason why we have issues like the example above is because people just can't get along. It's a double whammy in the instance of that while they are sounding off constantly demanding equality in all aspects of their environment, they are not respecting the equality that needs to be afforded to others as well, including Military Chaplains refusing service. Physicians, for example, have a right to refuse medical care as well as long as it's not an emergency situation. Your personal doctor can see you one day and say that he or she no longer wants to see you as a patient and you have to oblige, otherwise they can get you for trespass on the property, just like any private business owner. So, what is the big issue? For YEARS, everyone has complained that Christians and other religious entities are forcing their religion and morals on everyone, and now look what is happening, persons of the LGBT movement are trying to force their beliefs on us, so where do we draw the line?

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SSG Ronald Limbaugh

>1 y

I'm not saying that chaplains should be forced to go against their own convictions, however as a service member, they are also required to follow the rules and regulations of service. They are no longer afforded the opportunity to discriminate when it comes to Army programs that are paid for by Army funds. This chaplain and/or the Chaplain's Corps should have made available a chaplain that could accommodate all manner of couples, not just those that were acceptable to his faith or denomination. I don't see it as other faiths or non-religions forcing our beliefs on Christians, I see it as more of others trying to gain an equal footing with Christianity in the world, nation and service. I still do not like any religious group attempting to encroach on my liberties or rights, as afforded to me through being a natural born citizen or human being, which means I also don't like seeing it done o other folks either. It is a chaplain's prerogative to accept or deny according to their faith, when it comes to performing a religious ceremony, but this is an Army sanctioned program to provide assistance in the morale and welfare of the Soldiers, not provide spiritual guidance as defined by a single religious denomination. I applaud the couple that understood the convictions of the chaplain they approached to perform their ceremony, however i also understand this couple addressed in this thread. In this case, I think the way the chaplain handled it was completely wrong. there were other options available, outside of denying this couple the opportunity to attend the retreat, but instead of pursuing those options, he unilaterally decided they were exempt and could not attend, because his church would not allow him to attend if they did.

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SGT Suraj Dave

>1 y

The Chaplain is one of the most unique SM's in the Military. He has 1 job with 2 bosses. If he pisses of the Military and they kick him out, he can still pastor or preside in a church.

If he pisses off his denomination, he gets kicked out of the Army because he can no longer be a chaplain. He can no longer get a job either.

It is the safest thing for a Chaplain to do, is follow the rules and regulations of their religion over military rules.

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Gay Army couple says chaplain barred them from marriage retreat

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