Posted on Nov 22, 2013
Gay Army couple says chaplain barred them from marriage retreat
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Your thoughts? Should Chaplains have the right to do this to soldiers?
A same-sex couple at Fort Irwin, Calif., says they have been denied participation in an Army marriage enrichment program because of their sexual orientation, even though they are legally married.
Marriage
Chaplain
LGBTQ+
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 67
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Let us temporarily suspend religion from the discussion and focus on the bigger picture. The world has changed--we now have openly gay couples in the military community that do not need to hide their convictions. The chaplain corps has not changed with the times. One or the other must yield. If chaplains are sponsoring marriage retreats and are not willing by choice or are not able by beliefs to sponsor gays in marriage retreats then someone else needs to sponsor the retreats or we the military need to find chaplains who are willing and able to carry out their jobs in this new era where gay couples exist in the military. Does the chaplain have the right to turn away gay couples? According to his beliefs, yes. The Army wrote a regulation that contradicts his beliefs, so the chaplain needs to change his beliefs or change his job, but I doubt you can force him to accept gay couples. The military needs to adjust its chaplain corps accordingly, because religion is not necessarily going to change with the times just because the government has.
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Here is my opinion. 1. it is a form of discrimination because a marriage retreat has nothing to do with that chaplains religious beliefs. 2. like SSG Scott Williams said does a soldiers sexual orientation make them any less of a soldier? I mean just think about it in full.
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SGT(P) (Join to see)
SPC Pounds, they could attend the retreat but the Chaplain has the right to say that they cant sleep in the same room. I don't think that their should've been discrimination to going but they shouldn't expect special treatment. Same as a Singles strong Bonds it is Strongly advised not to have opposite sex in your room and if so you can be removed from the retreat and left to what your command seems fit. I have infact sent Soldiers home for that reason.
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CPT (Join to see)
SPC,
Look at your organization, The Army is one of the most discriminatory employers in the world, height, weight, medical history. For promotions we discriminate based on a persons ability to stand in front of a group of Senior advisers and belt out mantras and do facing movements.
Bottom line: The army openly discriminates.
On this matter, as has been said repeatedly, Chaplains must follow their Religious sects rules.
Freedom of religion is one of our most sacred rights, and who deserves it more than the soldier willing to fight for this nation?
No one is saying they are less of a soldier, but you are wrong to say that the event has nothing to do with the Chaplains religious beliefs. Again, the Chaplain is responsible for the event and must always conduct themself in accordance with the doctrine of their sponsoring faith.
Look at your organization, The Army is one of the most discriminatory employers in the world, height, weight, medical history. For promotions we discriminate based on a persons ability to stand in front of a group of Senior advisers and belt out mantras and do facing movements.
Bottom line: The army openly discriminates.
On this matter, as has been said repeatedly, Chaplains must follow their Religious sects rules.
Freedom of religion is one of our most sacred rights, and who deserves it more than the soldier willing to fight for this nation?
No one is saying they are less of a soldier, but you are wrong to say that the event has nothing to do with the Chaplains religious beliefs. Again, the Chaplain is responsible for the event and must always conduct themself in accordance with the doctrine of their sponsoring faith.
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Would love to hear from some of our Chaplains in the Military on this subject, and how they would have handled this case??
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Would love to hear from some of our Chaplains in the Military on this subject, and how they would have handled this case??
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I believe the chaplain was wrong to do this. The chaplain should be able to separate their duty to God from their duty to the soldiers. Just like a Christian Chaplain is not supposed to tell Muslim soldiers their religion is wrong, A chaplain should not exclude a legal couple from an event such as this because of their religious beliefs.
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CPT (Join to see)
SPC
I would ask you the same question.
What's next? Forcing a Chaplain to perform a wedding for a same sex couple in direct contradiction to their faith? How would that work? Telling a chaplain to sanction before their god a relationship that their faith directly opposes.
Speaking about a soldier's service, and endorsing their lifestyle are two different things. Praying for a soldier and blessing off on their lifestyle are also two very different things.
I would ask you the same question.
What's next? Forcing a Chaplain to perform a wedding for a same sex couple in direct contradiction to their faith? How would that work? Telling a chaplain to sanction before their god a relationship that their faith directly opposes.
Speaking about a soldier's service, and endorsing their lifestyle are two different things. Praying for a soldier and blessing off on their lifestyle are also two very different things.
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SGT Gary Frank
It is easier for a Gay or Lesbian couple to room together in the barracks simply by switching room mates. However Male/Female room mates is strictly forbidden in the barracks. The reasons for this are obvious, however Special Considerations are going to be tolerated or perhaps encouraged now that DADT no longer exist. Apparently, not so obvious to some.
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Cpl Ray Fernandez
2Lt Travis, Gay marriage is actually much older than we all realize. It actually goes back to medieval times all the way back to the 8th to 16th centuries. Even the current Pope has voiced his concern that the church worries too much about gays, abortion, and birth control. So to answer the question of forcing a Chaplain to perform a wedding for gays, would lead me conclude that it actually be more like reverting to an older tradition. If it's right or wrong isn't for me to decide, all I know is would rather treat every person who is serving with respect and equality rather than trying to pick and choose who is worthy simply by who they love. We have so many larger issues we face as a nation, and in the military that this whole issue seems rather minor to me.
If these words, taken from a manuscript preserved in the Vatican and dating from the year 1147, were for a bride and bridegroom, no one would find them startling:"Send down, most kind Lord, the
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CPT (Join to see)
CPL Fernandez,
Not the best article to choose. largely because the research in it doesn't agree with your position (the writer of the article does).
There are many ceremonies that Christians create to commemorate certain things, use for a time, and then they just fade away. I do not know what they were doing, or honoring. I do know that kissing as an almost purely romantic gesture is largely a western thing. In the New Testament Paul urges the recepeint of one of his letters to greet one another with a holy kiss. Was he instituting Christian Gay marriage? No, clearly not.
Not the best article to choose. largely because the research in it doesn't agree with your position (the writer of the article does).
There are many ceremonies that Christians create to commemorate certain things, use for a time, and then they just fade away. I do not know what they were doing, or honoring. I do know that kissing as an almost purely romantic gesture is largely a western thing. In the New Testament Paul urges the recepeint of one of his letters to greet one another with a holy kiss. Was he instituting Christian Gay marriage? No, clearly not.
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I am not gay however I do support people in live their lives they way they want. If they want to go to a Army Sponsored event that the Army is paying for, then they have that right. Thoughts??
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My thoughts are with the repeal of the DADT maybe the Strong Bonds Program needs to be an MWR Program instead of a Chaplain Program. As a soldier I believe all soldiers need to have the same opportunities, but as a Minister I side with the Chaplain as for as compromising religious beliefs.
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CW3 (Join to see)
SSG Williams, making the Strong Bonds program MWR instead of a Chaplain program is an excellent idea. Well done.
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Being a LGBT soldier, I can assure that my (personal) goal isn't to make a statement, or get media attention when injustice is served. I fully understand that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and what not int the military, but I also find it very hypocritical that the military stresses equality so much, but turns a blind eye to LGBT discrimination. (Not a blind eye, but are slow to respond) From PERSONAL experience with a similar situation to this... It to me escalating my complaint to IG before anything happened. Im not looking for anyone to accept my lifestyle... but my lifestyle has no affect on yours. Im not in your home sleeping with you, Im professional at work, and that should be that. This was a MARRIAGE retreat. If they were legally married, then they should have been able to go. Ive been to numerous Strong Bonds retreats and they help ALL COUPLES gay, straight, lesbian, green, alien... you name it... its good information. My personal belief is that if he felt so strongly about the situation he should have stepped down from heading the retreat. That would have alleviated everything... the couple would have been able to go under a different chaplain, and he wouldn't have forsaken his beliefs... It might not have sounded like the easiest thing to do but being a soldier, AND following ANY religion is hard. Sacrifices have to be made. But, since when do we refuse to aid need to soldiers because of their orientation, color, nationality etc.? If they signed up that was their way of saying they needed the teachings. Bottom line is this is going to be a circus, and its one of the reasons I feel like we should have kept DADT a little longer. (at least till we had regulation to cover things like this)
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Here's an update to this case. Turns out that wasnt the case.
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/11/22/2986341/military-chaplains-marriage-retreat/
A same-sex couple was told they were "ineligible" to participate in a marriage retreat on the base where they're stationed because the chaplains organizing the program are not allowed to recognize the...
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The more I read into this, the more I see that there are differences in programs being offered. Strong Bonds is a chaplain-led program that competes for funding from local Army unit commanders (ref: http://www.strongbonds.org/). CREDO and PREP are programs sponsored by the Commandant of the Marine Corps and the Chief of Naval Operations through the Navy chaplains (ref: http://www.mccs29palms.com/pages/mfamservices/CREDO.html)(ref: http://www.mccshh.com/PREP.html). The Air Force does not have a service-wide program, but MarriageCare may be found at many installations.
The differences amongst these programs seems to depend on who is sponsoring the program. One cannot expect a chaplain to deviate from religious beliefs on gay marriage, unless there is top-down guidance on how chaplains are to handle those situations.
Did the Army chaplain have the right to bar gay couples from a Strong Bonds or similar retreat? Until the Army changes the rules, yes. Would a Navy chaplain have the right to bar gay couples from a CREDO or PREP retreat? Probably not. Note that I am not saying banning gay couples is right, but I am saying that until the rules change their military obligations towards gay couples, chaplains have the right to do what is allowed by their religious obligations. At some point in the future, DoD needs to address the issue service-wide. DoD could write joint regulations to cover these situations. Instead of operating these services through the chaplains, perhaps they could operate these as a joint venture between the chaplains and the installation services unit, e.g. Airman and Family Readiness Center for Air Force, Marine Corps Family Readiness, etc.
The mission of the Marine Corps Family Team Building Program at Henderson Hall is to provide programs and services to encourage personal growth and strengthen the family for continual readiness. These...
CREDO's vision is to awaken service members and their families to the inherent personal and social strength available by living healthy, spiritual lives.
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