Posted on Nov 20, 2019
Bobby Maddox
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I read that NG soldier recently won both the Best Ranger and International Sniper competitions, beating out their counterparts from the Regular Army and SOF. I also ready that statistically NG soldiers fair better in SFAS and Q course compared to Regular Army. Any insight on that?
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SFC Retention Operations Nco
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From what I've seen working in the Guard and with Guard Soldiers, they bring the best and the worst to the fight. The active duty Army has this very narrow band of people they accept and keep. They're mostly people who joined at 18, have no life experience, and are very fit (compared to civilian population).Basically, meat heads with who are told they are the best until they're old enough to realize they aren't.
The National Guard employs almost anyone. Prior service who failed or were kicked out, 17 year old kids in Junior High, people with degrees, people with trades, cops and first responders, construction personnel, IT geeks. They also hire the licensed trades - lawyers, doctors, PAs, nurses, PTs, Dentists, etc. But they also employ the certified trades - electricians, linemen, plumbers, carpenters, pipe fitters, steel makers, etc.
Yeah, they have that 350 pound 11B E4 running around wearing his combat shirt as tight as Kim Kardashians leggings. But they also have that also have that marksmanship instructor who can shoot the ass off a fly. They have that Lineman that knows how to run power to your building and downshift it from 230 volts in Iraq to 120 volts to match your American made electronics. They have that 50 year old Infantryman who can break down Small Unit Tactics to his Soldiers in the jungle like he learned in Panama.
In my opinion, it's easy to make fun of the Guard because they accept the worst. But, in my experience they were the most adaptable units I ever worked with in combat.
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The National Guard has the same entry requirements as the active army. We do not “employ almost anyone”

Same ASVAB, same physical, same MEPS, same basic training and AIT.
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I do however appreciate your insight on the active army not knowing much about the world outside of the Army. In my mind, that is the National Guard’s biggest strength...we produce more...complete, for lack of a better term, individuals than the active duty pipeline does.
SFC Retention Operations Nco
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SFC Thomas Foreman the National Guard does not have the same entry requirements. For instance, there is no RCP in the Guard. There are no Try One, one year enlistments on Active Duty. The Guard has a reputation as a place where people can go, do at least a year, and get back onto Active Duty if they were kicked out of a previous service. Even when I was in the Guard I met numerous people who were doing time in the Guard so they could get a waiver approved for active duty. I have counseled several Soldiers who were separated for RCP that they could rejoin if they earned their rank in the Guard. They can also be reclassed into. MOSs they don't qualify for on the active duty side. As a Transition NCO, I have put people into jobs they don't qualify for on Active Duty because the National Guard waives more than Active Duty does. As a Guardsman, I saw more people who were not/would not be eligible for active duty, or who received waivers than I ever saw on Active Duty, even at the height of the surge.
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SFC (Join to see) you can’t do a try one as an initial enlistment. Period. Standard guard contract is 6x2 for initial entry.

We are bound by the RE codes as everyone else. If you get “kicked out” of active duty for bad business, you won’t be joining the gaurd.

You are correct that we don’t have RCP, but we do abide by the the STEP/PME requirements just as active duty does.

Everyone in the Army can reclassify, the difference is active duty does it upon reenlistment/needs of the Army vs Guard being more at the discretion of the soldier.

You’re speaking almost entirely form experience of enlisting prior service soldiers into the Guard. Initial entry into the Guard is IDENTICAL to initial entry into the active component.
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I’m in the signal community and our IT nerds tend to blow the doors off their active duty counterparts due to most of them performing higher level functions in the civilian world.

I’ve seen dirtbag AD units and dirtbag NG units. It ultimately comes down to command emphasis and leader engagement. One thing I think the NG wins hands down is their ability to perceive the world outside of their foxhole.
MSG Dan Castaneda
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I’d be willing to bet those NG Soldiers that won, are all full timers. Not to take anything away from them, but it takes more than a weekend a month to win these glories.
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Bobby Maddox
Bobby Maddox
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Maybe. I know a few who are absolute studs. Using personal time to train hard to attend schools like Sapper or Ranger. Depending on your civilian career and schedule, I could see someone being able to devote a lot of time and energy toward their Guard career
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The Pennsylvania contingent that has participated recently in these competitions are a mix of full time staff and traditional guardsmen. They are afforded additional training time and dollars to gear up, but I have to assume that their active duty counterparts are given similar time to prepare.
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Has the reputation of the National Guard improved in recent years?
MSG Dan Castaneda
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The National Guard does not out perform RA Soldiers in the Q-Course. I was an instructor from 2010-2013 and they barely made it trough. Their ranks are filled by guys that leave active duty.
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SFC Retention Operations Nco
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I've seen the same working in SFG. There were a lot of prior service guys who graduated the Q Course and moved to Active Duty side, but I never once met one that didn't have prior active duty experience before going to the Q Course.
I'm sure they have a decent selection rate of SFAS because there's a limit to how many people they can send, so they will only send their best. But, from who I've seen finish the pipeline, it was all AD, 18X, and prior service NG transfers.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
CPT Lawrence Cable
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SFC (Join to see) - Just curious, what percent of the first enlistment 18x contracts actually make it through selection on the first try?
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SFC Retention Operations Nco
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CPT Lawrence Cable I'm not a Recruiter so I couldn't really give an accurate answer. But from what I've seen talking to people who attended its probably around 1/3. The SOPC course they attend does a great job of preparing them, and if they pass SOPC they have a much higher pass rate than everyone else. Or it could be that the 18X contracts seem to draw an older and more educated crowd.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
CPT Lawrence Cable
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I think you are comparing apples and oranges. Of course an full time soldier should have a distinct advantage at selection over someone that is coming in from the civilian world working a full time job and trying to get ready for selection.
The issue in the my time was could a National Guard unit perform competently in combat GIVEN THE SAME TRAIN UP TIME as the Active units? My take is absolutely. Most US Army units are not prepared to go into combat at a moments notice and a deployment means weeks and months of preparation and training. In the time since 9/11 when the Guard Combat units have been deployed on a regular basis, the answer to that question seems to be yes. Historically, the performance of Guard units has been excellent.
On an historical note. I had the privilege of talking with an old WWII Marine, a Veteran of Guadalcanal. I told him I was in an Army Guard Engineer unit, and that got him started. He wanted to know if I knew who John Basilone was, I did, and he went into a story about when the 164th Infantry landed on the Canal and the Marines robbing them blind. He then changed the pace and went into what fighting SOB's the Grunts in the 164th had been and how their attitude changed after the battle of the 24th and 25th of Oct, when Basilone earned his MOH. His reason for the story was that the 164th Infantry were North Dakota National Guard.
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CPT Nicholas D.
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Edited 6 y ago
I have to imagine the reputation has improved over the “Nasty Girl” slurs of yesteryears. The National Guard has moved heavily into the operational force pool rather than being a “strategic reserve.” There might still be some “weekend warrior” zings in the barracks of Basic Training, but the Army Leadership (GEN Milley) has repeatedly said that the future of the Army does not exist without the future of the Guard. So we have that going for us.

Regarding some occupations, the ARNG does shine a little brighter. It is not uncommon for an ARNG Aviation line company to have one or two 4,000 - 5,000 hour pilots and a higher percentage over 2,000 hours. There isn’t a lot of places for National Guard Aviators to move inside their states, so they end up in operational assignments for much more of their career than their average active component comrades.

SOF is another arena where the ARNG typically does very well. Most ARNG SF soldiers have civilian skill sets that they bring into the unconventional fight. This makes for a much more well rounded warrior. I would say the Active Component has the reps to excel in the soldier skills, but when requirements remain pretty comparable for proficiency, your Guard guys have to work a lot harder at being “good.” The SFAS selection rate for ARNG is very good for a number of reasons. The primary motivation starts with limited school seats and limited funding. The ARNG can not afford to waste a lot of money on training failures. Most states with SF units typically hold competitive screening and selection programs before a Soldier is even allowed to attend SFAS.

Ironically, the same Soldiers who perpetuate the most amount of shade towards the Guard are usually exploring their local reserve component options after their first enlistment is over. But it doesn't take a lengthy google search to see we have our "gems" too. Every component has APFT failures and those that struggle with HT/WT. For all of the amazing rockstars we have in the Guard, you can find just as many wrestling to meet the basic army standards. No component has a monopoly on talent.
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CSM Richard StCyr
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I think it depends entirely on the unit. We had a National Guard unit as a round out line company in OIF 1 and they did a great job.
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SSgt Geospatial Intelligence
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Bobby Maddox it all depends on where you are, and what branch (Army or Air). Our SQN has a high reputation in the Air Intel community - especially with the active branch at Hickam.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
CPT Lawrence Cable
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I'll state this again, the Air Force has always done a much better job at integrating their Reserve and National Guard Component than the Army. Even back in the 80's, I don't think it was possible for the Air Force to operate without the Reserve/ANG and you often were dealing with part timers when you interacted with the Air Force, especially on the Air Transportation side. I had some friends on ANG flight crews that were in their words, "National Guard Bums", which they explained meant that they volunteered for any additional flight missions and didn't work full time civilian jobs.
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SSgt Geospatial Intelligence
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CPT Lawrence Cable - Oh yeah, sir! My unit is CONSTANTLY rotating out. Now there are other MAJCOMS asking for us. We have to tell them that our primary responsibility is to support PACAF, but we're all about going places! :)
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CPT Lawrence Cable
CPT Lawrence Cable
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SSgt (Join to see) - That was beginning to happen on the Army side when I got out, at least for Engineers. We supported a number of missions in Central and South American (Civil Action Programs) which weren't combat related in any fashion and also provided fill in for 3rd Brigade Engineers in Europe, as well as being the Divisional Engineers for the 35th Division Army National Guard.
Tells my age, but one of my buddies started as a flight crew on a C119. I got to ride in the C119 on a couple of occasions, roughest riding aircraft I ever rode. Think driving a tractor across a plowed field. That's coming from a guy that has spend a lot of time in helicopters.
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SSgt Geospatial Intelligence
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CPT Lawrence Cable - oof! Oh yeah. I remember riding Huey's out to the missile fields and trying my damnedest to not puke! LOL
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CPT Lawrence Cable
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The disrespect for the Army National Guard started during Vietnam when LBJ decided not to declare a National Emergency and active the Guard. That was the first time in History that the US had went to War without it's militias/National Guard. Although there was some participation in the war by the Army Guard, the Active Service (Draft Army) generally saw enlisting in the Guard as dodging service in Vietnam. That wasn't entirely without justification. After the move to the Volunteer Army, on paper there was generally a Guard Round Out Brigade assigned to every Combat Division that trained with these units. When the first Gulf War came around, the Generals in charge were all Vietnam era soldiers and they basically reneged on that agreement. Their excuse was the performance of one of the Round Outs at NTC, but my experience supporting the OPFOR there says everyone got their asses kicked at NTC. They had to take the Combat Support section, a lot of those just didn't exist in the Regular Army anymore.
I was Co of an Army Guard Divisional Engineer Company during Desert Storm, which means that we provided mobility, counter mobility, bridging and route recon for Mechanized Divisions. They gave us a Warning Order and we did POM, and set there through the whole thing. Instead, they used Corp level engineer units out of Europe that had no Divisional experience and weren't trained on the right equipment, verse a unit that was trained to do it and had just come off an NTC support mission. WTF?
Yes, I frustrated by that move. I did a keep up tour in Europe after the War with one of the Corp units that had gotten moved to a Division unit when the Army added a brigade to each Division instead of a battalion. I walked into the Assistant Brigade Engineers job, the Brigade Engineer is officially the Battalion Commander, who has a bunch of other responsibilities, with more maneuver experience and divisional experience than anyone on the staff, including the BN CO and S3. My home equipment operators and my maintenance section would have run circles around theirs and I didn't see anything in the squads that I thought my platoons couldn't have handled.
I think that we have done a much better job at integrating the Reserves and National Guard in the Army since Desert Storm than we did before. A lot of the Vietnam Era prejudice about the Guard aren't around today and Guard has once again become a valued asset.
BTW, the Air Force has done a much better job of integrating their Reserves and Guard units. Even when I was in, if you were flying on an Air Force Transport, there was a better than even chance that the pilot wasn't a full timer,
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